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> The most elite companies in the valley have correctly found out that remote doesn't work There are enough companies out there with remote employees and even

> The most elite companies in the valley have correctly found out that remote doesn't work There are enough companies out there with remote employees and even remotely distributed teams to disprove the assertion that "remote doesn't work".

phkahler 10y ago
OK, lets change it to "remote work doesn't work for everyone". There are plenty of cases where it didn't work too.
k__ 10y ago
I have the feeling remote works only for people who have an intrinsic motivation to be good at what they do. I met a whole bunch of people who want to be a dev because it pays well. Most of them need constant supervision.
- _yosefk 10y ago
  I'm in it for the money and haven't failed hard enough to prompt much supervision in a while. Intrinsic/extrinsic has nothing to do with it (I struggle with some things I'm intrinsically motivated to do more than programming.) Certainly "person X doing Y" requires different amount of supervision depending on X and Y but I think we know little about exactly how and why it varies. One source of variability: some care about impact on coworkers, some don't. Guess who will upset you more. Intrinsic/extrinsic is orthogonal to this.
  - k__ 10y ago
    "Intrinsic/extrinsic has nothing to do with it (I struggle with some things I'm intrinsically motivated to do more than programming.)" Sounds like you got intrinsic and extrinsic mixed up, at least unknowingly.
- nebabyte 10y ago
  > I have the feeling remote works only for people who have an intrinsic motivation to be good at what they do. Have you met kids? Many (most?) of them have an innate curiousity which is not hard to channel into a passion for learning given they get to learn things they enjoy, and if you tell them how well they're doing, they can get quite competitive about doing better. Self-motivation wasn't instilled by a system of proscribing to kids what and how they had to learn, but that doesn't mean a system can't be built around nurturing it.
- ryanSrich 10y ago
  This continues to be a discussion point around remote work. This is displaced. You're talking about poor hiring standards. It has literally nothing to do with remote work.
  - landryraccoon 10y ago
    In a discussion about education it is very relevant. What about the 99% of the population that are not qualified and will never be qualified to work at Google, Apple or Amazon? Do we as a society just leave them behind? Society has to accommodate for workers that bomb interviews and that you would never hire on your team even if your particular company has the luxury of pretending they don't exist.
  - preordained 10y ago
    I wouldn't say nothing. If there are some people who are poor as remote workers, but improve significantly in collocation, then the remoteness can indeed mean something in itself. Anecdotally, if the work environment is healthy (i.e., not open office trash), I think everyone benefits. I personally think remote is a good option if collocation is not possible--but not preferred.
  - losteric 10y ago
    What does any of this have to do with hiring standards? Companies like Google can hire for passion, but most just want competent employees that can consistently fulfill their responsibilities in a happy team while providing positive ROI to the company. Most people aren't inherently motivated by their jobs, and I'd say this applies even more in office settings. Work is work, "work / life balance" exists because work is the obligation that pays for life. If this is indicative of how America as a whole feels, then this has everything to do with remote work.
- JDiculous 10y ago
  It's not "intrinsic motivation to be good at what they do" that enables one to successfully work remotely, it's enough discipline to do one's job outside of an office setting. I myself try to hire for devs that don't need supervision because we're all adults here and being a nanny isn't something I'm interested in. I prefer trusting others to do their work in a timely manner, and if that trust is broken, we move on.
  - Baeocystin 10y ago
    This is a conversation I've had many times over the years. I've come to the conclusion that other than as a very cursory skills check, interviews are best performed simply as a test to see how well you get along with a person. The first few weeks will tell you if they're going to work out or not, and if not, it's better for all involved to move on quickly. They will either perform their duties as an adult, which includes working without constant oversight, or they won't. And if they can't do so, out they go before the probationary period is over, because you can't train someone to care.
- devforpay 10y ago
  My intrinsic motivation for choosing software engineering is pay. I don't think painting people like me with a broad brush of "needing constant supervision" is charitable. I am motivated to be good at what I do because I want to maintain my high pay, and push it higher still.
user5994461 10y ago
Remote doesn't work. I know, I work remote with people in 4 continents across 6 timezones. It simply doesn't work. You can't teach people, you can't train people, you can't show anything over a phone or a chat. On top of that, as soon as you have different timezones with little to no overlap. You cannot synchronise or work with your colleagues at all. Remote work and remote teams should be limited to people who are already senior, fully autonomous and experienced. And even there, it's a constant battle and it takes a lot of self discipline.
- chronic331 10y ago
  Do you have any other proof than your single anectdotal evidence? No?
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - user5994461 10y ago
    How about you provide proof that it works instead? Prove me that you can have a conversation with someone who's 8+ hours away and sleeping when you are awake. Prove me that you can teach someone over the phone to use a python profiler, knowing he's never used a profiler before. (That's one of the thing I had to do last week).
    - TheOtherHobbes 10y ago
      Why are you teaching people at all? If you hire professionals they either know what you need already, or you tell them "We use X. Go and learn X." There are remote-only outfits, and they do fine - at least as well "We're not getting any work done because we're in an open plan office and we can't hear ourselves think" outfits. But hiring policy is an issue, and so is PM. It needs people with a compatible attitude, and that includes management. It's not that remote is a panacea, but it shouldn't be a showstopper either. There are plenty of productivity killers in non-remote work styles too.

phkahler 10y ago

OK, lets change it to "remote work doesn't work for everyone". There are plenty of cases where it didn't work too.

k__ 10y ago

I have the feeling remote works only for people who have an intrinsic motivation to be good at what they do. I met a whole bunch of people who want to be a dev because it pays well. Most of them need constant supervision.

_yosefk 10y ago
I'm in it for the money and haven't failed hard enough to prompt much supervision in a while. Intrinsic/extrinsic has nothing to do with it (I struggle with some things I'm intrinsically motivated to do more than programming.) Certainly "person X doing Y" requires different amount of supervision depending on X and Y but I think we know little about exactly how and why it varies. One source of variability: some care about impact on coworkers, some don't. Guess who will upset you more. Intrinsic/extrinsic is orthogonal to this.
- k__ 10y ago
  "Intrinsic/extrinsic has nothing to do with it (I struggle with some things I'm intrinsically motivated to do more than programming.)" Sounds like you got intrinsic and extrinsic mixed up, at least unknowingly.
nebabyte 10y ago
> I have the feeling remote works only for people who have an intrinsic motivation to be good at what they do. Have you met kids? Many (most?) of them have an innate curiousity which is not hard to channel into a passion for learning given they get to learn things they enjoy, and if you tell them how well they're doing, they can get quite competitive about doing better. Self-motivation wasn't instilled by a system of proscribing to kids what and how they had to learn, but that doesn't mean a system can't be built around nurturing it.
ryanSrich 10y ago
This continues to be a discussion point around remote work. This is displaced. You're talking about poor hiring standards. It has literally nothing to do with remote work.
- landryraccoon 10y ago
  In a discussion about education it is very relevant. What about the 99% of the population that are not qualified and will never be qualified to work at Google, Apple or Amazon? Do we as a society just leave them behind? Society has to accommodate for workers that bomb interviews and that you would never hire on your team even if your particular company has the luxury of pretending they don't exist.
- preordained 10y ago
  I wouldn't say nothing. If there are some people who are poor as remote workers, but improve significantly in collocation, then the remoteness can indeed mean something in itself. Anecdotally, if the work environment is healthy (i.e., not open office trash), I think everyone benefits. I personally think remote is a good option if collocation is not possible--but not preferred.
- losteric 10y ago
  What does any of this have to do with hiring standards? Companies like Google can hire for passion, but most just want competent employees that can consistently fulfill their responsibilities in a happy team while providing positive ROI to the company. Most people aren't inherently motivated by their jobs, and I'd say this applies even more in office settings. Work is work, "work / life balance" exists because work is the obligation that pays for life. If this is indicative of how America as a whole feels, then this has everything to do with remote work.
JDiculous 10y ago
It's not "intrinsic motivation to be good at what they do" that enables one to successfully work remotely, it's enough discipline to do one's job outside of an office setting. I myself try to hire for devs that don't need supervision because we're all adults here and being a nanny isn't something I'm interested in. I prefer trusting others to do their work in a timely manner, and if that trust is broken, we move on.
- Baeocystin 10y ago
  This is a conversation I've had many times over the years. I've come to the conclusion that other than as a very cursory skills check, interviews are best performed simply as a test to see how well you get along with a person. The first few weeks will tell you if they're going to work out or not, and if not, it's better for all involved to move on quickly. They will either perform their duties as an adult, which includes working without constant oversight, or they won't. And if they can't do so, out they go before the probationary period is over, because you can't train someone to care.
devforpay 10y ago
My intrinsic motivation for choosing software engineering is pay. I don't think painting people like me with a broad brush of "needing constant supervision" is charitable. I am motivated to be good at what I do because I want to maintain my high pay, and push it higher still.

user5994461 10y ago

Remote doesn't work. I know, I work remote with people in 4 continents across 6 timezones. It simply doesn't work. You can't teach people, you can't train people, you can't show anything over a phone or a chat. On top of that, as soon as you have different timezones with little to no overlap. You cannot synchronise or work with your colleagues at all. Remote work and remote teams should be limited to people who are already senior, fully autonomous and experienced. And even there, it's a constant battle and it takes a lot of self discipline.

chronic331 10y ago
Do you have any other proof than your single anectdotal evidence? No?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- user5994461 10y ago
  How about you provide proof that it works instead? Prove me that you can have a conversation with someone who's 8+ hours away and sleeping when you are awake. Prove me that you can teach someone over the phone to use a python profiler, knowing he's never used a profiler before. (That's one of the thing I had to do last week).
  - TheOtherHobbes 10y ago
    Why are you teaching people at all? If you hire professionals they either know what you need already, or you tell them "We use X. Go and learn X." There are remote-only outfits, and they do fine - at least as well "We're not getting any work done because we're in an open plan office and we can't hear ourselves think" outfits. But hiring policy is an issue, and so is PM. It needs people with a compatible attitude, and that includes management. It's not that remote is a panacea, but it shouldn't be a showstopper either. There are plenty of productivity killers in non-remote work styles too.