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> There are so many things wrong with this comment. I feel strongly about the midwest. I hated living there. There are serious down-sides, and if people move t

> There are so many things wrong with this comment. I feel strongly about the midwest. I hated living there. There are serious down-sides, and if people move to Tulsa thinking it's "NZ in the USA", they're going to be in for a rough surprise. Do you disagree? > First, commuting refers specifically to the to-and-from of your journey to work My point was that you're probably going to end up driving in either case, and if you have to drive anyways, your commute will suck no matter where you live. OR, if you don't end up driving, you're actually not saving much on cost of housing. And you probably have a lower salary with which to purchase that prime real estate. Basically, little net benefit over California or other coastal states. > You can complain about the weather and that's valid, but the whole planet isn't California and we can't all live there for one reason or another. If a bunch of people like me moved out there from the frozen/scorching wasteland of places like NYC, then you'd be priced out of the state. Be thankful that for some people weather isn't that big of a deal. First, I don't live in California. I agree with everything else. It's really all beside the point, though. > Just because your family is stupid doesn't make everybody else's family stupid... So you can stop with the drive-by generalizations here - especially these undeserved "casually racist" ones. My family isn't stupid. Pretty smart by any objective measure aside from willingness to believe confirmational bullshit, actually. Which is kind of my point. They're embedded in a terrible culture. Look, I lived in the midwest for decades. I know what I'm talking about. The politics of the region is dominated by this sort of stuff. It's a LOT more common and MUCH more difficult to avoid in the midwest. The composition of state houses speaks for itself. Name a midwestern state and I'll go member-by-member through its General Assembly to demonstrate to you the obscene popularity of blatant intolerance. Seriously, shoot. It bleeds over into every aspect of life. If you're lucky enough to be white male and straight, you can just avoid talking to people all-together, or silo yourself off from your community, and mostly ignore the terrible culture of the region. Which is what I did. But if you like living in a community where you know and respect your neighbors, the midwest can be a tough place to be.

tomdell 9y ago
Stop with the generalizations. They're inaccurate and insulting. You don't know what you're talking about at all.
- throwaway729 9y ago
  I'm not saying "all midwesterners are racist and believe in crazy shit". I'm saying it's more common and harder to avoid in the midwest. I think that claim is both true and demonstrable. I even suggested one empirical test. At the very least, it's not a generalization. Saying "box a has more red gumballs than box b, so if you don't like red, choose box b" isn't the same as saying "all the gumballs in that box are red". > You don't know what you're talking about at all. With all due respect, I lived in the midwest long enough to have an informed opinion. Maybe our experiences differ, but mine are PERFECTLY well-informed. I believe that you know what you're talking about. I also don't believe your experiences are perfectly representative.
  - hueving 9y ago
    >With all due respect, I lived in the midwest long enough to have an informed opinion. Maybe our experiences differ, but mine are PERFECTLY well-informed. It sounds like you lived in one location in the mid west and have taken it upon yourself to assume that's how it must be everywhere. That's not well-informed, it's just an anecdote about a crappy time spent somewhere in the country.
    - throwaway729 9y ago
      > It sounds like you lived in one location Also not true. Try again. > That's not well-informed, it's just an anecdote about a crappy time spent somewhere in the country. Multiple decades across several states. Both in cities and in non-city areas. The argument here basically amounts to: "But hey, the densest 20% County-Containing-Major-City, ST isn't so bad, and my college educated software engineering co-workers are all pretty decent..." And I'M the one making inaccurate generalizations about the region?! Come off it. Take a week off work on go two counties in any direction. Or hell, to that other suburb where 30% of the metro population but none of the folks you hang out with live. Come back and tell me you still think I'm wildly out of touch.
      - dang 9y ago
cookiecaper 9y ago
This assumes that one's politics align with the politics and hostile culture in California. I intentionally avoid living in CA due to its culture/politics and have turned down multiple bona fide relocation offers to CA. Like all places, the Midwest is not without its unhappy quirks or its difficult people, but Midwesterners are noticeably polite and friendly, even coming from other "flyover" regions. Yes, they are generally conservative (not universally, and especially not among the young), but they can usually get along with their neighbors just fine. When I lived in the Midwest, we had not only multiple gay people, but multiple gay teachers living in our neighborhood. While I'm sure it upset some of the parents, these teachers were able to go about their business just fine and spent many years teaching at the schools. This was in a very red region, not some liberal enclave. We had people of all races and it was rarely, if ever, a visible issue. We didn't have anyone shouting racial slurs or visibly denigrating people. I'm sure this happened occasionally, not trying to say that there are literally 0 racists, but it was by no means a sentiment you'd come across with any frequency. If you live in a big city like NYC or SF, you probably get exposed to more "intolerance" from contrarians/extremists who also live in big cities than someone who lives in the Midwest. The Midwest is a great place to be. It's extremely unfair to cast such aspersions on it.
- throwaway729 9y ago
  > This assumes that one's politics align with the politics and hostile culture in California. I intentionally avoid living in CA due to its culture/politics and have turned down multiple bona fide relocation offers to CA. This is certainly true! To each his own. My point was that the midwest probably isn't a great place to be if you're looking for "cheaper California". Sounds like we agree on that. > When I lived in the Midwest, we had not only multiple gay people, but multiple gay teachers living in our neighborhood... these teachers were able to go about their business just fine and spent many years teaching at the schools 1. "Not being fired for being gay" is literally the lowest bar I can think of other that "not being imprisoned for being gay". 2. A school I attended explicitly discriminated against trans people in hiring. And those are the public schools. So, YMMV. I'm sure things have gotten better across the entire country since then, including the midwest. 3. Even without "lose your job/house" levels of hate, the world can still be a nasty place. E.g. imagine driving by this billboard every day: http://www.medina-gazette.com/news/2013/02/22/Passers-by-on-I-71-condemn-return-of-church-s-billboard.html http://www.medina-gazette.com/news/2013/02/22/Passers-by-on-... And of course most of the people you interact with disagree with the sign, but attend churches that teach the exact same thing. Those "midwestern nice" interactions don't feel so "nice" anymore. > If you live in a big city like NYC or SF, you probably get exposed to more "intolerance" from contrarians/extremists who also live in big cities than someone who lives in the Midwest. Sure. The difference is who's in charge! And that's the difference that makes a difference. > The Midwest is a great place to be. It's extremely unfair to cast such aspersions on it. For you. I hated it.
csutter 9y ago
I live in Tulsa and disagree entirely. You have no idea what you are talking about.

tomdell 9y ago

Stop with the generalizations. They're inaccurate and insulting. You don't know what you're talking about at all.

throwaway729 9y ago
I'm not saying "all midwesterners are racist and believe in crazy shit". I'm saying it's more common and harder to avoid in the midwest. I think that claim is both true and demonstrable. I even suggested one empirical test. At the very least, it's not a generalization. Saying "box a has more red gumballs than box b, so if you don't like red, choose box b" isn't the same as saying "all the gumballs in that box are red". > You don't know what you're talking about at all. With all due respect, I lived in the midwest long enough to have an informed opinion. Maybe our experiences differ, but mine are PERFECTLY well-informed. I believe that you know what you're talking about. I also don't believe your experiences are perfectly representative.
- hueving 9y ago
  >With all due respect, I lived in the midwest long enough to have an informed opinion. Maybe our experiences differ, but mine are PERFECTLY well-informed. It sounds like you lived in one location in the mid west and have taken it upon yourself to assume that's how it must be everywhere. That's not well-informed, it's just an anecdote about a crappy time spent somewhere in the country.
  - throwaway729 9y ago
    > It sounds like you lived in one location Also not true. Try again. > That's not well-informed, it's just an anecdote about a crappy time spent somewhere in the country. Multiple decades across several states. Both in cities and in non-city areas. The argument here basically amounts to: "But hey, the densest 20% County-Containing-Major-City, ST isn't so bad, and my college educated software engineering co-workers are all pretty decent..." And I'M the one making inaccurate generalizations about the region?! Come off it. Take a week off work on go two counties in any direction. Or hell, to that other suburb where 30% of the metro population but none of the folks you hang out with live. Come back and tell me you still think I'm wildly out of touch.
    - dang 9y ago

cookiecaper 9y ago

This assumes that one's politics align with the politics and hostile culture in California. I intentionally avoid living in CA due to its culture/politics and have turned down multiple bona fide relocation offers to CA. Like all places, the Midwest is not without its unhappy quirks or its difficult people, but Midwesterners are noticeably polite and friendly, even coming from other "flyover" regions. Yes, they are generally conservative (not universally, and especially not among the young), but they can usually get along with their neighbors just fine. When I lived in the Midwest, we had not only multiple gay people, but multiple gay teachers living in our neighborhood. While I'm sure it upset some of the parents, these teachers were able to go about their business just fine and spent many years teaching at the schools. This was in a very red region, not some liberal enclave. We had people of all races and it was rarely, if ever, a visible issue. We didn't have anyone shouting racial slurs or visibly denigrating people. I'm sure this happened occasionally, not trying to say that there are literally 0 racists, but it was by no means a sentiment you'd come across with any frequency. If you live in a big city like NYC or SF, you probably get exposed to more "intolerance" from contrarians/extremists who also live in big cities than someone who lives in the Midwest. The Midwest is a great place to be. It's extremely unfair to cast such aspersions on it.

throwaway729 9y ago
> This assumes that one's politics align with the politics and hostile culture in California. I intentionally avoid living in CA due to its culture/politics and have turned down multiple bona fide relocation offers to CA. This is certainly true! To each his own. My point was that the midwest probably isn't a great place to be if you're looking for "cheaper California". Sounds like we agree on that. > When I lived in the Midwest, we had not only multiple gay people, but multiple gay teachers living in our neighborhood... these teachers were able to go about their business just fine and spent many years teaching at the schools 1. "Not being fired for being gay" is literally the lowest bar I can think of other that "not being imprisoned for being gay". 2. A school I attended explicitly discriminated against trans people in hiring. And those are the public schools. So, YMMV. I'm sure things have gotten better across the entire country since then, including the midwest. 3. Even without "lose your job/house" levels of hate, the world can still be a nasty place. E.g. imagine driving by this billboard every day: http://www.medina-gazette.com/news/2013/02/22/Passers-by-on-I-71-condemn-return-of-church-s-billboard.html http://www.medina-gazette.com/news/2013/02/22/Passers-by-on-... And of course most of the people you interact with disagree with the sign, but attend churches that teach the exact same thing. Those "midwestern nice" interactions don't feel so "nice" anymore. > If you live in a big city like NYC or SF, you probably get exposed to more "intolerance" from contrarians/extremists who also live in big cities than someone who lives in the Midwest. Sure. The difference is who's in charge! And that's the difference that makes a difference. > The Midwest is a great place to be. It's extremely unfair to cast such aspersions on it. For you. I hated it.

csutter 9y ago

I live in Tulsa and disagree entirely. You have no idea what you are talking about.