5 ms·

> For the most part, this is all true in, say, Tulsa. Especially if you stay off Facebook. Really only the cost of living. > Commuting is less wearying Not r

> For the most part, this is all true in, say, Tulsa. Especially if you stay off Facebook. Really only the cost of living. > Commuting is less wearying Not really. There's a near zero percent chance your commute involves anything other than driving. The walkable areas of midwestern cities are certainly cheaper than SF, but they're also not exactly cheap. You're still looking at half a million for a decent house, 200k for a decent condo, and that's on a midwestern salary. Not to mention the weather. And if you're driving, well, driving is driving. > And American politics, “Brexit” and the Islamic State are on the other side of the world... [can be avoided] Especially if you stay off Facebook. I mean, I guess you can just avoid talking to people altogether, but avoiding Facebook is no way to avoid the nastier parts of American populist politics in the midwest, which is decidedly Trump's America. On my last visit I learned that there are still people who very strongly believe that Obama is a Muslim and Clinton is a witch (literally, as in worships satan. I'm not exaggerating and they weren't being coy with language). And I wasn't even seeking them out, they were just the people I was obligated to spend time with. So no, the midwest isn't some cheaper version of California. There's a reason why people like me leave after a few decades and never look back. The weather sucks, the cities are either unlivable or not appreciably cheaper, and there's a high concentration of extremely unpleasant people.

muninn_ 9y ago
There are so many things wrong with this comment. First, commuting refers specifically to the to-and-from of your journey to work. I hate cars, but you're being dishonest in how you're addressing the parent comment. Going to the grocery store, for example, isn't a commute. Actually you could probably use Prime Pantry or something and not even have to drive to go do those things. I strongly prefer a walkable city, and people like Jeff Speck preach the gospel as far as I'm concerned - but I'll take a daily 20 minute drive over an hour hopping on and off trains any day of the week - especially when I can do so from my nice, comfy Lexus or whatever. You can complain about the weather and that's valid, but the whole planet isn't California and we can't all live there for one reason or another. If a bunch of people like me moved out there from the frozen/scorching wasteland of places like NYC, then you'd be priced out of the state. Be thankful that for some people weather isn't that big of a deal. >And don't get me started on the casual racism/homophobia. The Midwest is Trump's America. In-laws firmly believe Obama is a Muslim and that Hillary Clinton is a witch. I'm not exaggerating for effect, and they're not being coy. Sincerely held beliefs. Just because your family is stupid doesn't make everybody else's family stupid. My parents don't think Obama is a Muslim , aren't at all racist, and they voted for Trump. I don't think Obama is a Muslim (I voted for him both times) and I don't like Hillary. So you can stop with the drive-by generalizations here - especially these undeserved "casually racist" ones.
- throwaway729 9y ago
  > There are so many things wrong with this comment. I feel strongly about the midwest. I hated living there. There are serious down-sides, and if people move to Tulsa thinking it's "NZ in the USA", they're going to be in for a rough surprise. Do you disagree? > First, commuting refers specifically to the to-and-from of your journey to work My point was that you're probably going to end up driving in either case, and if you have to drive anyways, your commute will suck no matter where you live. OR, if you don't end up driving, you're actually not saving much on cost of housing. And you probably have a lower salary with which to purchase that prime real estate. Basically, little net benefit over California or other coastal states. > You can complain about the weather and that's valid, but the whole planet isn't California and we can't all live there for one reason or another. If a bunch of people like me moved out there from the frozen/scorching wasteland of places like NYC, then you'd be priced out of the state. Be thankful that for some people weather isn't that big of a deal. First, I don't live in California. I agree with everything else. It's really all beside the point, though. > Just because your family is stupid doesn't make everybody else's family stupid... So you can stop with the drive-by generalizations here - especially these undeserved "casually racist" ones. My family isn't stupid. Pretty smart by any objective measure aside from willingness to believe confirmational bullshit, actually. Which is kind of my point. They're embedded in a terrible culture. Look, I lived in the midwest for decades. I know what I'm talking about. The politics of the region is dominated by this sort of stuff. It's a LOT more common and MUCH more difficult to avoid in the midwest. The composition of state houses speaks for itself. Name a midwestern state and I'll go member-by-member through its General Assembly to demonstrate to you the obscene popularity of blatant intolerance. Seriously, shoot. It bleeds over into every aspect of life. If you're lucky enough to be white male and straight, you can just avoid talking to people all-together, or silo yourself off from your community, and mostly ignore the terrible culture of the region. Which is what I did. But if you like living in a community where you know and respect your neighbors, the midwest can be a tough place to be.
  - tomdell 9y ago
    Stop with the generalizations. They're inaccurate and insulting. You don't know what you're talking about at all.
djsumdog 9y ago
I never owned a car in Wellington. The bus and train system is excellent.
- throwaway729 9y ago
  Since some people feel I'm being unfair to the midwest, I'll mention: * Chicago has a pretty decent public transit systems. * MSP and St. Louis both have decent light rail systems for their size. Still pitiful compared to most of western Europe or Wellington (the latter due to the comparably poor bus systems in msp and stl), but also cheaper on the tax base of course. And not too shabby compared to Portland for example.
hueving 9y ago
>which is decidedly Trump's America Look at the results for something like Kansas City, MO.[1] It's about 50/50 between the two candidates. If you look at the Bay Area counties[2], it's 1/6th to 1/5th of the voters supporting Trump. So in a room filled with a random ~10 people will have 2 Trump supporters in the Bay and 5 in Kansas City. >they were just the people I was obligated to spend time with. I suspect this is the only actual difference between the two. On your visit to the Midwest you were forced to hang out with people discussing politics. This is no less unpleasant if you are living in the Bay and aren't a rabid Democrat. 1. http://www.nytimes.com/elections/results/missouri http://www.nytimes.com/elections/results/missouri 2. http://www.nytimes.com/elections/results/california http://www.nytimes.com/elections/results/california
- throwaway729 9y ago
  > Kansas City, MO...Bay Area counties This isn't even close to an Apples-to-Apples comparison. You should at least include Clay, Lafayette, Johnson if you're going to look at the entire Bay area. And then looks at who's Actually In Charge of the state! The people with the power are the ones who make an actual difference, on a political level. Greitens is downright liberal compared to a lot of the general assembly. > So in a room filled with a random ~10 people will have 2 Trump supporters in the Bay and 5 in Kansas City. But you and I both know that's not how it actually works basically anywhere. Except maybe the DMV. > On your visit to the Midwest I spent decades there, in cities, burbs, and rural areas. My experiences are representative. Perhaps, I venture to guess, much more representative than someone who never leaves Jackson County. Spend some time in the bootheel. Or even the comparatively flaming liberal city of Springfield.
- vkat 9y ago
  I lived in Kansas City metro for 6 years and politics is rarely discussed at work. The people I hang out with are very welcoming and don't treat immigrants any differently. When there was racial induced killing in one of the suburbs(Olathe) there was an outpouring of grief and support. Basic human premise.
  - cookiecaper 9y ago
gregw134 9y ago
You can get a decent house (3 bedrooms, large yard) for 150k in many Midwestern cities as long as you're willing to live in the suburbs.
- throwaway729 9y ago
  FWIW my experience is closer to 200k minimum. Especially if you want to be in one of the 1 or 2 best school districts in the area. But yeah, right ballpark. Definitely cheaper than CA. you can also go way south of 150k if you're not in a major metro area, though. But for not much more (and with a higher salary) you can get a decent suburban house in any number of western or eastern cities. Maybe a tad less land here or there. And the cities are still expensive with bad schools.
dang 9y ago
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14114500 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14114500 and marked it off-topic.

muninn_ 9y ago

There are so many things wrong with this comment. First, commuting refers specifically to the to-and-from of your journey to work. I hate cars, but you're being dishonest in how you're addressing the parent comment. Going to the grocery store, for example, isn't a commute. Actually you could probably use Prime Pantry or something and not even have to drive to go do those things. I strongly prefer a walkable city, and people like Jeff Speck preach the gospel as far as I'm concerned - but I'll take a daily 20 minute drive over an hour hopping on and off trains any day of the week - especially when I can do so from my nice, comfy Lexus or whatever. You can complain about the weather and that's valid, but the whole planet isn't California and we can't all live there for one reason or another. If a bunch of people like me moved out there from the frozen/scorching wasteland of places like NYC, then you'd be priced out of the state. Be thankful that for some people weather isn't that big of a deal. >And don't get me started on the casual racism/homophobia. The Midwest is Trump's America. In-laws firmly believe Obama is a Muslim and that Hillary Clinton is a witch. I'm not exaggerating for effect, and they're not being coy. Sincerely held beliefs. Just because your family is stupid doesn't make everybody else's family stupid. My parents don't think Obama is a Muslim , aren't at all racist, and they voted for Trump. I don't think Obama is a Muslim (I voted for him both times) and I don't like Hillary. So you can stop with the drive-by generalizations here - especially these undeserved "casually racist" ones.

throwaway729 9y ago
> There are so many things wrong with this comment. I feel strongly about the midwest. I hated living there. There are serious down-sides, and if people move to Tulsa thinking it's "NZ in the USA", they're going to be in for a rough surprise. Do you disagree? > First, commuting refers specifically to the to-and-from of your journey to work My point was that you're probably going to end up driving in either case, and if you have to drive anyways, your commute will suck no matter where you live. OR, if you don't end up driving, you're actually not saving much on cost of housing. And you probably have a lower salary with which to purchase that prime real estate. Basically, little net benefit over California or other coastal states. > You can complain about the weather and that's valid, but the whole planet isn't California and we can't all live there for one reason or another. If a bunch of people like me moved out there from the frozen/scorching wasteland of places like NYC, then you'd be priced out of the state. Be thankful that for some people weather isn't that big of a deal. First, I don't live in California. I agree with everything else. It's really all beside the point, though. > Just because your family is stupid doesn't make everybody else's family stupid... So you can stop with the drive-by generalizations here - especially these undeserved "casually racist" ones. My family isn't stupid. Pretty smart by any objective measure aside from willingness to believe confirmational bullshit, actually. Which is kind of my point. They're embedded in a terrible culture. Look, I lived in the midwest for decades. I know what I'm talking about. The politics of the region is dominated by this sort of stuff. It's a LOT more common and MUCH more difficult to avoid in the midwest. The composition of state houses speaks for itself. Name a midwestern state and I'll go member-by-member through its General Assembly to demonstrate to you the obscene popularity of blatant intolerance. Seriously, shoot. It bleeds over into every aspect of life. If you're lucky enough to be white male and straight, you can just avoid talking to people all-together, or silo yourself off from your community, and mostly ignore the terrible culture of the region. Which is what I did. But if you like living in a community where you know and respect your neighbors, the midwest can be a tough place to be.
- tomdell 9y ago
  Stop with the generalizations. They're inaccurate and insulting. You don't know what you're talking about at all.

djsumdog 9y ago

I never owned a car in Wellington. The bus and train system is excellent.

throwaway729 9y ago
Since some people feel I'm being unfair to the midwest, I'll mention: * Chicago has a pretty decent public transit systems. * MSP and St. Louis both have decent light rail systems for their size. Still pitiful compared to most of western Europe or Wellington (the latter due to the comparably poor bus systems in msp and stl), but also cheaper on the tax base of course. And not too shabby compared to Portland for example.

hueving 9y ago

>which is decidedly Trump's America Look at the results for something like Kansas City, MO.[1] It's about 50/50 between the two candidates. If you look at the Bay Area counties[2], it's 1/6th to 1/5th of the voters supporting Trump. So in a room filled with a random ~10 people will have 2 Trump supporters in the Bay and 5 in Kansas City. >they were just the people I was obligated to spend time with. I suspect this is the only actual difference between the two. On your visit to the Midwest you were forced to hang out with people discussing politics. This is no less unpleasant if you are living in the Bay and aren't a rabid Democrat. 1. http://www.nytimes.com/elections/results/missouri http://www.nytimes.com/elections/results/missouri 2. http://www.nytimes.com/elections/results/california http://www.nytimes.com/elections/results/california

throwaway729 9y ago
> Kansas City, MO...Bay Area counties This isn't even close to an Apples-to-Apples comparison. You should at least include Clay, Lafayette, Johnson if you're going to look at the entire Bay area. And then looks at who's Actually In Charge of the state! The people with the power are the ones who make an actual difference, on a political level. Greitens is downright liberal compared to a lot of the general assembly. > So in a room filled with a random ~10 people will have 2 Trump supporters in the Bay and 5 in Kansas City. But you and I both know that's not how it actually works basically anywhere. Except maybe the DMV. > On your visit to the Midwest I spent decades there, in cities, burbs, and rural areas. My experiences are representative. Perhaps, I venture to guess, much more representative than someone who never leaves Jackson County. Spend some time in the bootheel. Or even the comparatively flaming liberal city of Springfield.
vkat 9y ago
I lived in Kansas City metro for 6 years and politics is rarely discussed at work. The people I hang out with are very welcoming and don't treat immigrants any differently. When there was racial induced killing in one of the suburbs(Olathe) there was an outpouring of grief and support. Basic human premise.
- cookiecaper 9y ago

gregw134 9y ago

You can get a decent house (3 bedrooms, large yard) for 150k in many Midwestern cities as long as you're willing to live in the suburbs.

throwaway729 9y ago
FWIW my experience is closer to 200k minimum. Especially if you want to be in one of the 1 or 2 best school districts in the area. But yeah, right ballpark. Definitely cheaper than CA. you can also go way south of 150k if you're not in a major metro area, though. But for not much more (and with a higher salary) you can get a decent suburban house in any number of western or eastern cities. Maybe a tad less land here or there. And the cities are still expensive with bad schools.

dang 9y ago

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14114500 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14114500 and marked it off-topic.