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I don't think New Zealand's selling point will ever be isolation. To have isolation you need to have a place with very lax laws where people don't want to bothe

I don't think New Zealand's selling point will ever be isolation. To have isolation you need to have a place with very lax laws where people don't want to bother you. New Zealand is very beautiful and interesting but there are still many laws and many people who want to bother you. Maybe this is "isolation" in a previously unheard of, to me, sense where you just don't want to be a citizen of a major nation or something? I don't know. For what I think of as "isolation" NZ is too draconian. Higher taxes and stricter laws really make it a no go for many people. When 50k USD lands you in the highest tax bracket (30%), when everything tech related is more expensive, and you're a software engineer it's a hard sell. NZ's biggest selling points are low crime, low unemployment, interesting area, and attractive social programs. It's definetly not an isolationist paradise unless you define isolationist as being "not in America, Middle East, or Europe" which this article seems happy to do.

lostlogin 10y ago
Keep in mind how low a 30% tax rate is. It's low relative to the OECD and, depending on your politics, needs to go up or have some higher brackets for the wealthier.
- gravypod 10y ago
  > Keep in mind how low a 30% tax rate is Well if it's so low I wouldn't mind sending you my paypal. You can always send me some supplimental money if you don't think the government is taking enough from you. We can think of it as wealth redistribution to a poor college student. > It's low relative to the OECD If I'm focused on isolating myself from everyone why would I care about what other OECD members are doing? > depending on your politics, needs to go up or have some higher brackets for the wealthier I don't think someone, who is attempting to isolate themselves from other people, would want to deal with this sort of thinking. If this is how New Zealander's think then they're not going to see many hermits swimming their way over the pond and lining up for land. These processes will undoutably create the need to interact with other people to prevent yourself from being arrested or fined heavily. This is the exact opposite of what someone who would like to isolate themselves from the rest of the world would want.
  - lostlogin 10y ago
    Some of us down here are plenty happy to pay for our share and would vote to increase what's taken to improve services. We don't need more immigration, we need infrastructure and need to pay for it. Taxes help pay for university here (and I wish it covered more of the cost) so if you were studying here, your partly covered. Why do you think we're isolationist? No part of NZ foreign policy is intended to be like that.
    - gravypod 10y ago
      Why not just then vote against tax hikes and instead donate your money to the government or to charity organizations? When you vote for tax hikes you're essentially reaching into your pocket, taking out money, and giving it to someone. Then you're reaching into your neighbor's pocket, taking some more out, and giving it to yourself and that other third party. Why not let people choose to give their money? Why vote to force them to give their money?
      - lostlogin 10y ago
        Because I don't believe that would work. Where has it been tried and worked?
        gravypod 10y ago
        Where has it been tried? It seems most people try and jump to their neighbors wallets. Despite that, charity is still a huge factor for changing the world. The B&M Gates foundation is one of many organizations that sacrifices gains to try and make the world a better place for ideological reasons. No dipping into someone else's pocket needed. The fact that a majority of people are willing to vote for more taxes is proof that this is either a) not needed because those people would donate because they think it's important, or b) the majority is just using the fact that they're the majorty as a reason it's ok to take from others.
        lostlogin 10y ago
sitharus 10y ago
Remember that 30% is it for tax, other than the 15% GST built in to all purchases. There's no city or state taxes, no payroll tax, no additional costs for health insurance and no cost of compliance - as an employed individual you don't need an accountant to do your taxes.
- doubleunplussed 10y ago
  This. I'm on 55k USD in the US, and my average (not marginal) income tax rate (including FICA/med, state and local taxes) is 32 %. For the sake of comparison that's including the employee health insurance contribution, which I wouldn't pay if I were in NZ. If you don't include that my average tax rate is more like 29%. In either case a marginal tax rate of 30% in a tax system as progressive as New Zealand's would result in a considerably smaller tax bill for me. Many Americans I speak to think that the US is a low taxing country, but this is false for most people. It is only the case for the moderately rich and up. Your tax system is not very progressive, particularly social security and medicare are flat taxes if I'm not mistaken, so not progressive at all, and the state taxes I've seen have barely any progressivity to them.
  - sitharus 10y ago
    30% is the highest tax bracket, in NZ on the equivalent of USD 55k pa (NZ$77600 right now) you'd pay $17835 in tax, or around 23% marginal. There is the matter of 15% GST to consider, but it's not something you often think about and factors in to the cost of living comparisons.
    - doubleunplussed 10y ago
      Wow, 30 % is the top rate? That's incredible. Would have expected it to go up closer to 50 % for a country with the general attitudes I'd perceived NZ to have. I guess it might be to entice skilled people not to leave?
      - sitharus 10y ago
vacri 10y ago
> It's definetly not an isolationist paradise "Isolation" and "Isolationist" are significantly different concepts. One is a physical property, the other is a social construct. > To have isolation you need to have a place with very lax laws where people don't want to bother you. This isn't isolationism either. Switzerland is isolationist, but it has plenty of strict laws (including conscription), for example. What you're describing is a libertarian fantasy country.
- gravypod 10y ago
  > "Isolation" and "Isolationist" are significantly different concepts. One is a physical property, the other is a social construct. Someone who want's to isolate themselves, in search of "isolation", can be called an "isolationist". > This isn't isolationism either. Switzerland is isolationist, but it has plenty of strict laws (including conscription), for example. What you're describing is a libertarian fantasy country. If you want to be "isolated" you need a place where others will stay away from you. People who want to make you do things will undoutably cause people to come and enforce those desires. Any place that want's to force people to do things is not friendly to those who would like to "isolate" themselves... those whom could be called "isolationists" or "practicioners of isolation". The word "isolationist" in a national context means the nation is the one practicing isolation. From my context it is clear that the personal is attempting to practice isolation. I don't think your interpretation of what I was saying is correct.
  - vacri 10y ago
    One of the really annoying things about libertarianism is the way it takes words that other people already use, redefine it to mean something else, and then tells those people they're wrong for using the original word. An 'isolationist' is someone who wants their country to withdraw from the world politically. It's not someone who wants to live 'off the grid'. It's not someone who is frightened by a 30% marginal tax bracket. It's not another term for 'libertarian'. Someone who wants to live off by themselves with little interaction with others is called a hermit, not an isolationist.
    - 10y ago

lostlogin 10y ago

Keep in mind how low a 30% tax rate is. It's low relative to the OECD and, depending on your politics, needs to go up or have some higher brackets for the wealthier.

gravypod 10y ago
> Keep in mind how low a 30% tax rate is Well if it's so low I wouldn't mind sending you my paypal. You can always send me some supplimental money if you don't think the government is taking enough from you. We can think of it as wealth redistribution to a poor college student. > It's low relative to the OECD If I'm focused on isolating myself from everyone why would I care about what other OECD members are doing? > depending on your politics, needs to go up or have some higher brackets for the wealthier I don't think someone, who is attempting to isolate themselves from other people, would want to deal with this sort of thinking. If this is how New Zealander's think then they're not going to see many hermits swimming their way over the pond and lining up for land. These processes will undoutably create the need to interact with other people to prevent yourself from being arrested or fined heavily. This is the exact opposite of what someone who would like to isolate themselves from the rest of the world would want.
- lostlogin 10y ago
  Some of us down here are plenty happy to pay for our share and would vote to increase what's taken to improve services. We don't need more immigration, we need infrastructure and need to pay for it. Taxes help pay for university here (and I wish it covered more of the cost) so if you were studying here, your partly covered. Why do you think we're isolationist? No part of NZ foreign policy is intended to be like that.
  - gravypod 10y ago
    Why not just then vote against tax hikes and instead donate your money to the government or to charity organizations? When you vote for tax hikes you're essentially reaching into your pocket, taking out money, and giving it to someone. Then you're reaching into your neighbor's pocket, taking some more out, and giving it to yourself and that other third party. Why not let people choose to give their money? Why vote to force them to give their money?
    - lostlogin 10y ago
      Because I don't believe that would work. Where has it been tried and worked?
      - gravypod 10y ago
        Where has it been tried? It seems most people try and jump to their neighbors wallets. Despite that, charity is still a huge factor for changing the world. The B&M Gates foundation is one of many organizations that sacrifices gains to try and make the world a better place for ideological reasons. No dipping into someone else's pocket needed. The fact that a majority of people are willing to vote for more taxes is proof that this is either a) not needed because those people would donate because they think it's important, or b) the majority is just using the fact that they're the majorty as a reason it's ok to take from others.
        lostlogin 10y ago

sitharus 10y ago

Remember that 30% is it for tax, other than the 15% GST built in to all purchases. There's no city or state taxes, no payroll tax, no additional costs for health insurance and no cost of compliance - as an employed individual you don't need an accountant to do your taxes.

doubleunplussed 10y ago
This. I'm on 55k USD in the US, and my average (not marginal) income tax rate (including FICA/med, state and local taxes) is 32 %. For the sake of comparison that's including the employee health insurance contribution, which I wouldn't pay if I were in NZ. If you don't include that my average tax rate is more like 29%. In either case a marginal tax rate of 30% in a tax system as progressive as New Zealand's would result in a considerably smaller tax bill for me. Many Americans I speak to think that the US is a low taxing country, but this is false for most people. It is only the case for the moderately rich and up. Your tax system is not very progressive, particularly social security and medicare are flat taxes if I'm not mistaken, so not progressive at all, and the state taxes I've seen have barely any progressivity to them.
- sitharus 10y ago
  30% is the highest tax bracket, in NZ on the equivalent of USD 55k pa (NZ$77600 right now) you'd pay $17835 in tax, or around 23% marginal. There is the matter of 15% GST to consider, but it's not something you often think about and factors in to the cost of living comparisons.
  - doubleunplussed 10y ago
    Wow, 30 % is the top rate? That's incredible. Would have expected it to go up closer to 50 % for a country with the general attitudes I'd perceived NZ to have. I guess it might be to entice skilled people not to leave?
    - sitharus 10y ago

vacri 10y ago

> It's definetly not an isolationist paradise "Isolation" and "Isolationist" are significantly different concepts. One is a physical property, the other is a social construct. > To have isolation you need to have a place with very lax laws where people don't want to bother you. This isn't isolationism either. Switzerland is isolationist, but it has plenty of strict laws (including conscription), for example. What you're describing is a libertarian fantasy country.

gravypod 10y ago
> "Isolation" and "Isolationist" are significantly different concepts. One is a physical property, the other is a social construct. Someone who want's to isolate themselves, in search of "isolation", can be called an "isolationist". > This isn't isolationism either. Switzerland is isolationist, but it has plenty of strict laws (including conscription), for example. What you're describing is a libertarian fantasy country. If you want to be "isolated" you need a place where others will stay away from you. People who want to make you do things will undoutably cause people to come and enforce those desires. Any place that want's to force people to do things is not friendly to those who would like to "isolate" themselves... those whom could be called "isolationists" or "practicioners of isolation". The word "isolationist" in a national context means the nation is the one practicing isolation. From my context it is clear that the personal is attempting to practice isolation. I don't think your interpretation of what I was saying is correct.
- vacri 10y ago
  One of the really annoying things about libertarianism is the way it takes words that other people already use, redefine it to mean something else, and then tells those people they're wrong for using the original word. An 'isolationist' is someone who wants their country to withdraw from the world politically. It's not someone who wants to live 'off the grid'. It's not someone who is frightened by a 30% marginal tax bracket. It's not another term for 'libertarian'. Someone who wants to live off by themselves with little interaction with others is called a hermit, not an isolationist.
  - 10y ago