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Norquist started Americans for Tax Reform (ATR) is a politically conservative U.S. taxpayer advocacy group whose stated goal is "a system in which taxes are sim

Norquist started Americans for Tax Reform (ATR) is a politically conservative U.S. taxpayer advocacy group whose stated goal is "a system in which taxes are simpler, flatter, more visible, and lower than they are today." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americans_for_Tax_Reform https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americans_for_Tax_Reform Doesn't sound like you are describing Norquist's organization they way they do in their mission statement. Do you have any references?

lern_too_spel 10y ago
https://www.propublica.org/article/how-the-maker-of-turbotax-fought-free-simple-tax-filing https://www.propublica.org/article/how-the-maker-of-turbotax... > In 2005, Norquist testified before the President's Advisory Panel on Federal Tax Reform arguing against return-free filing. The next year, Norquist and others wrote in a letter to President Bush that getting an official-looking "bill" from the IRS could be "extremely intimidating, particularly for seniors, low-income and non-English speaking citizens."
talmand 10y ago
A quick search provided an ABC story that showed the rather short and simple pledge and the reasoning behind it. Nothing stated in the article supports the claim made above. I believe that's just someone's interpretation in an effort to make certain people they disagree with look bad.
s73ver 10y ago
Wait, you're telling me that there's an organization who's actions differ quite a bit from what they tell people their mission statement is? Next you'll be telling me that Google does evil.
hibikir 10y ago
There's plenty of sources. For example, Planet Money, episode 760, where we hear a story of how a program to make filing easier and less error prone, without changing the tax code in any way, is axed when Norquist starts to pressure republicans. I for one find the grandparent's explanation of the organization to be quite accurate. My guess is that you aren't getting the subtext: His main goal is, in practice, to lower taxes for those with high incomes, and the rest of that group's stated goal is just mandatory steps to make it possible to pass that. The visibility factor is huge, just because without it, his movement would not have legs: The more visible, the more likely it is for people to dislike taxes, whether they are getting a lot out of them or not. Making all taxes lower is also key to sell that goal too, as flattening the system while maintaining revenue would mean a tax increase for a large majority of Americans, which is also a non-starter. Once you get those real, non-stated goals, then the stated goals make perfect sense, as they align 100% with what one would need to do to get the real goals achieved in practice.
smacktoward 10y ago
Are you seriously proposing that a group that decided it was in their interest to lobby for confusing, painful taxes would say so in plain language on their Web site?
greggman 10y ago
it's a matter of perspective . making taxes more invisible to some people, myself included, makes them easier to raise. so, the argument would be to first make taxes more painful. the best would be to remove auto withholding. if the average $50k a year family had to write a check for $3k to the government every 3 mouths they'd likely push much harder for lower taxes. less taxes means less money for government which would seem to mean smaller government. once the taxes are low and government is small you can simplify the tax code. I'm not saying I agree with that or that I could ever actually happen but I don't see a flaw in the logic and why their own description of their mission can both say they are for simpler taxes and also be against the kind of simpler the linked article is about
- mgkimsal 10y ago
  not sure what area they're in where a $50k/year family pays $12k in taxes. NY? CA?
  - Mr24601 10y ago
    Nowhere. $50k a year family probably only pays $5k a year all in including ss.
    - mgkimsal 10y ago
      that's pretty much what I was thinking.
    - spc476 10y ago
      I just looked it up [1] and depending upon filing status (single, married, head of household) the tax on the net taxable income of $50,000 (after deductions, expenses, etc) is between $6,576 and $8,278. $12,000 in taxes don't start until $65,000 net income. [1] https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i1040gi.pdf https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i1040gi.pdf

lern_too_spel 10y ago

https://www.propublica.org/article/how-the-maker-of-turbotax-fought-free-simple-tax-filing https://www.propublica.org/article/how-the-maker-of-turbotax... > In 2005, Norquist testified before the President's Advisory Panel on Federal Tax Reform arguing against return-free filing. The next year, Norquist and others wrote in a letter to President Bush that getting an official-looking "bill" from the IRS could be "extremely intimidating, particularly for seniors, low-income and non-English speaking citizens."

talmand 10y ago

A quick search provided an ABC story that showed the rather short and simple pledge and the reasoning behind it. Nothing stated in the article supports the claim made above. I believe that's just someone's interpretation in an effort to make certain people they disagree with look bad.

s73ver 10y ago

Wait, you're telling me that there's an organization who's actions differ quite a bit from what they tell people their mission statement is? Next you'll be telling me that Google does evil.

hibikir 10y ago

There's plenty of sources. For example, Planet Money, episode 760, where we hear a story of how a program to make filing easier and less error prone, without changing the tax code in any way, is axed when Norquist starts to pressure republicans. I for one find the grandparent's explanation of the organization to be quite accurate. My guess is that you aren't getting the subtext: His main goal is, in practice, to lower taxes for those with high incomes, and the rest of that group's stated goal is just mandatory steps to make it possible to pass that. The visibility factor is huge, just because without it, his movement would not have legs: The more visible, the more likely it is for people to dislike taxes, whether they are getting a lot out of them or not. Making all taxes lower is also key to sell that goal too, as flattening the system while maintaining revenue would mean a tax increase for a large majority of Americans, which is also a non-starter. Once you get those real, non-stated goals, then the stated goals make perfect sense, as they align 100% with what one would need to do to get the real goals achieved in practice.

smacktoward 10y ago

Are you seriously proposing that a group that decided it was in their interest to lobby for confusing, painful taxes would say so in plain language on their Web site?

greggman 10y ago

it's a matter of perspective . making taxes more invisible to some people, myself included, makes them easier to raise. so, the argument would be to first make taxes more painful. the best would be to remove auto withholding. if the average $50k a year family had to write a check for $3k to the government every 3 mouths they'd likely push much harder for lower taxes. less taxes means less money for government which would seem to mean smaller government. once the taxes are low and government is small you can simplify the tax code. I'm not saying I agree with that or that I could ever actually happen but I don't see a flaw in the logic and why their own description of their mission can both say they are for simpler taxes and also be against the kind of simpler the linked article is about

mgkimsal 10y ago
not sure what area they're in where a $50k/year family pays $12k in taxes. NY? CA?
- Mr24601 10y ago
  Nowhere. $50k a year family probably only pays $5k a year all in including ss.
  - mgkimsal 10y ago
    that's pretty much what I was thinking.
  - spc476 10y ago
    I just looked it up [1] and depending upon filing status (single, married, head of household) the tax on the net taxable income of $50,000 (after deductions, expenses, etc) is between $6,576 and $8,278. $12,000 in taxes don't start until $65,000 net income. [1] https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i1040gi.pdf https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i1040gi.pdf