11 ms·

Fascinating topic. I wish I knew how to interpret Coltrane's diagram. Any ideas?

by rrherr 10y ago

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
pavement 9y ago
The pentatonic scale. [0] Once you tune your ear into it, it's absolutely everywhere. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentatonic_scale https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentatonic_scale
- zhemao 9y ago
  Not quite. It's actually a hexatonic scale, AKA the whole tone scale. Each note is a whole step up from the last one. The outer circle is a C whole tone scale and the inner circle is a B whole tone scale (i.e. they're offset by a half step). The circles and lines are used to highlight other harmonic relations, like the circle of fifths. The following blog post explains it in more detail. https://roelhollander.eu/en/blog-saxophone/Coltrane-Tone-Circle/ https://roelhollander.eu/en/blog-saxophone/Coltrane-Tone-Cir...
  - pavement 9y ago
    Well fancy that! I stand corrected. Thanks for pointing that out!
  - brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
    Nice blog post citation. Jazz musicians absolutely love to dig into these structures from https://www.worldcat.org/title/thesaurus-of-scales-and-melodic-patterns/oclc/000947300 https://www.worldcat.org/title/thesaurus-of-scales-and-melod...
    - moogly 9y ago
      McCoy Tyner has said that Coltrane carried Slonimsky's book with him almost everywhere he went for several years. I have a copy but I'm way too stupid/musically uneducated to grok it. Back when I started with music at the age of 12 I thought it was "cool" to be autodidact and not know theory and I have regretted it ever since, because try as I might learning it now, it doesn't really stick. You need those 8-10 hours of practice a day I suppose, and they're hard to come by in your adult life.
      - brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
        You only need to be great at the thing YOU do to be a great musician. Ornette and Chet Baker did a lot with "not knowing theory". Ornette has his own theories, as did Monk. Chet Baker was notoriously bad at playing changes from a sheet- but he was great at hearing them in tunes and hearing what he wanted to play. Ella had no idea about music theory. I'd say you are in great company. The best musicians develop their own things, and the good news is: it is never too late for you. You go ahead and make something you love- you will be the expert at that. :)
  - jameshart 9y ago
    Is it me, or did he screw up the V highlight on the left hand side of the wheel? He has a G# on the outer ring partnered with its neighboring G and A on the inner ring - but to fit with the pattern it should be the A on the inner ring partnered with the G#/Bb on the outer ring.
    - zhemao 9y ago
      Huh, yeah you're right, there's a mistake in Coltrane's original version.
    - evanb 9y ago
      I noticed that straight away---and I hardly know anything about music! It just breaks the symmetry pattern, so it couldn't be right.
    - Gormisdomai 9y ago
      Is there a chance it was on purpose. To give the music a particular sound?
    - anentropic 9y ago
      yes it must be a mistake it seems in other drawings which appear to also be by Coltrane they are drawn as you suggest, A + Ab/Bb preserving the symmetry https://roelhollander.eu/en/blog-saxophone/Coltrane-Tone-Circle/ https://roelhollander.eu/en/blog-saxophone/Coltrane-Tone-Cir...
brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
Think:color wheel. Every improvising musician (and some classical musicians as well)holds a similar diagram in their heads when practicing common chord progressions like ii-V-Is and rhythm changes, and the blues, etc... and on and on. Each note/chord in the western scale pulls against others next and opposite to it in the same way, regardless of the key one inhabits in any given moment. These relationships are dynamic; variables, in a way, pulling against one another in an interconnected system. The tonic(I, or "c" in c major, for example) has a "home" quality, the dominant (V) has a cadential quality in relation to the tonic, etc., and each chord has its role. Within this system, one can create the illusion that one is "in a key" that one is not actually fully in for the overall work-- this is like nesting methods in code. Loops are loops and the idea remains the same no matter how big or small, no matter the coding language. Chordal relations in music are the same. This diagram may be what Coltrane holds in his head as he plays patterns and repeats motives in a given solo to imply chordal relationships and "transportation" from one realm to another. These realms have anticipatory meaning we all understand unconsciously, even if we are not professional jazz musicians. (for example, we all feel the need for "do" if it is left off the end of "do re mi fa sol la ti...." in "Do, a deer".) There is nothing magical about Coltrane's diagram that I can see that is beyond what most improvisers hold in their heads as they practice patterns over chord changes. And yet, there is something wonderful about how these chords and notes create inherent meaning and character roles relative to one another-- like the color wheel. It is still cool to see the way Coltrane represented these for himself in his own mind, (in other words- how simple his ingredients- they are the same as ours, and the result!)implying how he practiced improvising, and the path those patterns may have taken. When improvising over changes, it is easy to get lost in a compositional idea and lose one's place in the form. Maintaining a simple "relational data structure" like this circle is way way to maintain one's balance a place in the overall form and structure. Jazz musicians work to internalize this in practice, so that in performance, they can be free and expressive while still within the form. And then...there is Dolphy.!!
- anentropic 9y ago
  "Every improvising musician ... holds a similar diagram in their heads when practicing common chord progressions" Nope

Fascinating topic. I wish I knew how to interpret Coltrane's diagram. Any ideas?

by rrherr 10y ago

Fascinating topic. I wish I knew how to interpret Coltrane's diagram. Any ideas?

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

pavement 9y ago

The pentatonic scale. [0] Once you tune your ear into it, it's absolutely everywhere. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentatonic_scale https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentatonic_scale

zhemao 9y ago
Not quite. It's actually a hexatonic scale, AKA the whole tone scale. Each note is a whole step up from the last one. The outer circle is a C whole tone scale and the inner circle is a B whole tone scale (i.e. they're offset by a half step). The circles and lines are used to highlight other harmonic relations, like the circle of fifths. The following blog post explains it in more detail. https://roelhollander.eu/en/blog-saxophone/Coltrane-Tone-Circle/ https://roelhollander.eu/en/blog-saxophone/Coltrane-Tone-Cir...
- pavement 9y ago
  Well fancy that! I stand corrected. Thanks for pointing that out!
- brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
  Nice blog post citation. Jazz musicians absolutely love to dig into these structures from https://www.worldcat.org/title/thesaurus-of-scales-and-melodic-patterns/oclc/000947300 https://www.worldcat.org/title/thesaurus-of-scales-and-melod...
  - moogly 9y ago
    McCoy Tyner has said that Coltrane carried Slonimsky's book with him almost everywhere he went for several years. I have a copy but I'm way too stupid/musically uneducated to grok it. Back when I started with music at the age of 12 I thought it was "cool" to be autodidact and not know theory and I have regretted it ever since, because try as I might learning it now, it doesn't really stick. You need those 8-10 hours of practice a day I suppose, and they're hard to come by in your adult life.
    - brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
      You only need to be great at the thing YOU do to be a great musician. Ornette and Chet Baker did a lot with "not knowing theory". Ornette has his own theories, as did Monk. Chet Baker was notoriously bad at playing changes from a sheet- but he was great at hearing them in tunes and hearing what he wanted to play. Ella had no idea about music theory. I'd say you are in great company. The best musicians develop their own things, and the good news is: it is never too late for you. You go ahead and make something you love- you will be the expert at that. :)
- jameshart 9y ago
  Is it me, or did he screw up the V highlight on the left hand side of the wheel? He has a G# on the outer ring partnered with its neighboring G and A on the inner ring - but to fit with the pattern it should be the A on the inner ring partnered with the G#/Bb on the outer ring.
  - zhemao 9y ago
    Huh, yeah you're right, there's a mistake in Coltrane's original version.
  - evanb 9y ago
    I noticed that straight away---and I hardly know anything about music! It just breaks the symmetry pattern, so it couldn't be right.
  - Gormisdomai 9y ago
    Is there a chance it was on purpose. To give the music a particular sound?
  - anentropic 9y ago
    yes it must be a mistake it seems in other drawings which appear to also be by Coltrane they are drawn as you suggest, A + Ab/Bb preserving the symmetry https://roelhollander.eu/en/blog-saxophone/Coltrane-Tone-Circle/ https://roelhollander.eu/en/blog-saxophone/Coltrane-Tone-Cir...

brooklyn_ashey 9y ago

Think:color wheel. Every improvising musician (and some classical musicians as well)holds a similar diagram in their heads when practicing common chord progressions like ii-V-Is and rhythm changes, and the blues, etc... and on and on. Each note/chord in the western scale pulls against others next and opposite to it in the same way, regardless of the key one inhabits in any given moment. These relationships are dynamic; variables, in a way, pulling against one another in an interconnected system. The tonic(I, or "c" in c major, for example) has a "home" quality, the dominant (V) has a cadential quality in relation to the tonic, etc., and each chord has its role. Within this system, one can create the illusion that one is "in a key" that one is not actually fully in for the overall work-- this is like nesting methods in code. Loops are loops and the idea remains the same no matter how big or small, no matter the coding language. Chordal relations in music are the same. This diagram may be what Coltrane holds in his head as he plays patterns and repeats motives in a given solo to imply chordal relationships and "transportation" from one realm to another. These realms have anticipatory meaning we all understand unconsciously, even if we are not professional jazz musicians. (for example, we all feel the need for "do" if it is left off the end of "do re mi fa sol la ti...." in "Do, a deer".) There is nothing magical about Coltrane's diagram that I can see that is beyond what most improvisers hold in their heads as they practice patterns over chord changes. And yet, there is something wonderful about how these chords and notes create inherent meaning and character roles relative to one another-- like the color wheel. It is still cool to see the way Coltrane represented these for himself in his own mind, (in other words- how simple his ingredients- they are the same as ours, and the result!)implying how he practiced improvising, and the path those patterns may have taken. When improvising over changes, it is easy to get lost in a compositional idea and lose one's place in the form. Maintaining a simple "relational data structure" like this circle is way way to maintain one's balance a place in the overall form and structure. Jazz musicians work to internalize this in practice, so that in performance, they can be free and expressive while still within the form. And then...there is Dolphy.!!

anentropic 9y ago
"Every improvising musician ... holds a similar diagram in their heads when practicing common chord progressions" Nope