7 ms·

Apple's HTML5 'standards' hype debunked

17 points by cpg 16y ago

cpg 16y ago
Do you know how accurate this article is, technically and otherwise? I wonder how much of this article is actually just bashing or has merit as Apple trying to push something "open" with clear self-interest thinly veiled?
- tptacek 16y ago
  How is self-interest even relevant here? HTML5, even if it's being promoted in an Apple-biased way, is still far better for the industry than Flash is. The Reg can gripe all it wants, but the point of the Apple showcase is that 90% of what Flash is used for is being obsoleted, and Apple is 100% right about that.
  - not_an_alien 16y ago
    So your point is that lying is OK as long as it goes on par with your agenda?
    - tptacek 16y ago
      No, that wasn't my point.
  - papachito 16y ago
    Except these demos were not HTML5 http://www.0xdeadbeef.com/weblog/2010/06/intellectual-honesty-and-html5/ http://www.0xdeadbeef.com/weblog/2010/06/intellectual-honest...
    - ROFISH 16y ago
      HTML5 is a moving target that's changing everyday. Until the spec is 100% completed, finalized, and sealed, there's never going to be interoperability. And interoperability is only one goal of HTML5. The other goal, in my opinion, is shiny features like Canvas, CSS Animation, and 3D Transforms. And Apple is doing quite well at those.
    - tptacek 16y ago
      We get it. HTML5 was an inaccurate label to apply to the techniques Apple used in the showcase. But what's your point? What is Apple demonstrating here that isn't a valid example of how HTML is going to displace Flash? HTML5 is going to do video as well as Flash. HTML5 is going to do type and layout better than Flash.
- ROFISH 16y ago
  I don't see how Apple could get more "open" than what they're doing with Webkit and their HTML5 implementation. Let's take an example: CSS Animation. They have: * Made an official spec for a CSS3 addition, labeled CSS Animation. * Submitted the spec to be included in the overall HTML5/CSS3 document. * Wrote a reference renderer in Webkit that properly uses a vendor tag for non-standard CSS elements (as per the CSS spec). * Open-sourced it in Webkit. I don't know how more "open" you can get with Apple's HTML5. Somebody has to create the bleeding edge in order to get there. How do you think CSS3 supports the features that it does now like border-radius or RGBA? Somebody made it and submitted it. Just because Apple forces you download Safari for (presently) Safari only demos doesn't mean it's any less open. I know that Firefox is slowing working towards adding all the cool features. For example, the 3.7 alpha supports CSS transitions (the precursor to animations).
  - CoryMathews 16y ago
    Just because Apple forces you download Safari for (presently) Safari only demos doesn't mean it's any less open. Yes it does. Those demos partially worked in Chrome and Opera yet they did not allow those browsers. The should have allowed you to view them in other browsers and stated that safari is the only one to 100% properly display them. Although they also should have included the -moz and -o prefixes. Till then its not open. Its a closed implementation.
  - bradhe 16y ago
    > Somebody has to create the bleeding edge in order to get there. That's not how the rules of Internet Land work, friend.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
psyklic 16y ago
The video introducing Dreamweaver's new "HTML5 Pack" extension ironically only showcases its CSS3 capabilities: http://tv.adobe.com/watch/adc-presents/introducing-the-dreamweaver-cs5-html5-pack/ http://tv.adobe.com/watch/adc-presents/introducing-the-dream... According to Wikipedia, the colloquial use of "HTML5" actually means "HTML5 + CSS3".
pedrokost 16y ago
The demos created by Apple should look like the demos Microsoft is creating for IE9 Previews' capabilities. At least these much better. See (in any HTML5 capable browser): http://ie.microsoft.com/testdrive/ http://ie.microsoft.com/testdrive/
ellyagg 16y ago
Things we know: * The term html5 has been used loosely to describe the next generation of emerging browser standards for a long time. After this tempest in a teapot, it will continue to be so. Until someone comes up with something better, this is well and good. * Safari uses vendor prefixes for its introduction of emerging standards, just like, e.g., Firefox. This is good software engineering practice since it allows developers to start testing and using new standards, but won't conflict with finalized standards. * Apple created a page showing how they are on the forefront of implementing some of these emerging standards. Note that since it was a page about their own browser's implementation of emerging standards, they required the use of their browser for the demos. Random people on the Internet don't get to redefine the purpose of Apple's web page and then wax righteously indignant. If you want to see examples of Apple creating pages that work in all the major browsers, please visit ANY OTHER PAGE ON APPLE'S SITE.

17 points by cpg 16y ago

cpg 16y ago

Do you know how accurate this article is, technically and otherwise? I wonder how much of this article is actually just bashing or has merit as Apple trying to push something "open" with clear self-interest thinly veiled?

tptacek 16y ago
How is self-interest even relevant here? HTML5, even if it's being promoted in an Apple-biased way, is still far better for the industry than Flash is. The Reg can gripe all it wants, but the point of the Apple showcase is that 90% of what Flash is used for is being obsoleted, and Apple is 100% right about that.
- not_an_alien 16y ago
  So your point is that lying is OK as long as it goes on par with your agenda?
  - tptacek 16y ago
    No, that wasn't my point.
- papachito 16y ago
  Except these demos were not HTML5 http://www.0xdeadbeef.com/weblog/2010/06/intellectual-honesty-and-html5/ http://www.0xdeadbeef.com/weblog/2010/06/intellectual-honest...
  - ROFISH 16y ago
    HTML5 is a moving target that's changing everyday. Until the spec is 100% completed, finalized, and sealed, there's never going to be interoperability. And interoperability is only one goal of HTML5. The other goal, in my opinion, is shiny features like Canvas, CSS Animation, and 3D Transforms. And Apple is doing quite well at those.
  - tptacek 16y ago
    We get it. HTML5 was an inaccurate label to apply to the techniques Apple used in the showcase. But what's your point? What is Apple demonstrating here that isn't a valid example of how HTML is going to displace Flash? HTML5 is going to do video as well as Flash. HTML5 is going to do type and layout better than Flash.
ROFISH 16y ago
I don't see how Apple could get more "open" than what they're doing with Webkit and their HTML5 implementation. Let's take an example: CSS Animation. They have: * Made an official spec for a CSS3 addition, labeled CSS Animation. * Submitted the spec to be included in the overall HTML5/CSS3 document. * Wrote a reference renderer in Webkit that properly uses a vendor tag for non-standard CSS elements (as per the CSS spec). * Open-sourced it in Webkit. I don't know how more "open" you can get with Apple's HTML5. Somebody has to create the bleeding edge in order to get there. How do you think CSS3 supports the features that it does now like border-radius or RGBA? Somebody made it and submitted it. Just because Apple forces you download Safari for (presently) Safari only demos doesn't mean it's any less open. I know that Firefox is slowing working towards adding all the cool features. For example, the 3.7 alpha supports CSS transitions (the precursor to animations).
- CoryMathews 16y ago
  Just because Apple forces you download Safari for (presently) Safari only demos doesn't mean it's any less open. Yes it does. Those demos partially worked in Chrome and Opera yet they did not allow those browsers. The should have allowed you to view them in other browsers and stated that safari is the only one to 100% properly display them. Although they also should have included the -moz and -o prefixes. Till then its not open. Its a closed implementation.
- bradhe 16y ago
  > Somebody has to create the bleeding edge in order to get there. That's not how the rules of Internet Land work, friend.

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

psyklic 16y ago

The video introducing Dreamweaver's new "HTML5 Pack" extension ironically only showcases its CSS3 capabilities: http://tv.adobe.com/watch/adc-presents/introducing-the-dreamweaver-cs5-html5-pack/ http://tv.adobe.com/watch/adc-presents/introducing-the-dream... According to Wikipedia, the colloquial use of "HTML5" actually means "HTML5 + CSS3".

pedrokost 16y ago

The demos created by Apple should look like the demos Microsoft is creating for IE9 Previews' capabilities. At least these much better. See (in any HTML5 capable browser): http://ie.microsoft.com/testdrive/ http://ie.microsoft.com/testdrive/

ellyagg 16y ago

Things we know: * The term html5 has been used loosely to describe the next generation of emerging browser standards for a long time. After this tempest in a teapot, it will continue to be so. Until someone comes up with something better, this is well and good. * Safari uses vendor prefixes for its introduction of emerging standards, just like, e.g., Firefox. This is good software engineering practice since it allows developers to start testing and using new standards, but won't conflict with finalized standards. * Apple created a page showing how they are on the forefront of implementing some of these emerging standards. Note that since it was a page about their own browser's implementation of emerging standards, they required the use of their browser for the demos. Random people on the Internet don't get to redefine the purpose of Apple's web page and then wax righteously indignant. If you want to see examples of Apple creating pages that work in all the major browsers, please visit ANY OTHER PAGE ON APPLE'S SITE.