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This is what happens when people watch too much sensationalized news. What will stop home owner associations and condo complexes from getting their own police f

by dade_ 10y ago

This is what happens when people watch too much sensationalized news. What will stop home owner associations and condo complexes from getting their own police forces? Who would they report to? What about privatizing the judiciary too? Maybe the church should be (paying higher taxes/start paying taxes) to the local government so they have better policing in the community?

NoGravitas 10y ago
This is how you get burbclaves.
humanrebar 10y ago
> This is what happens when people watch too much sensationalized news. I understand but there have been mass murders at both schools and churches in the last couple years. And churches routinely have lower-level keeping-the-peace issues, especially involving people with psychiatric issues. Security isn't optional because churches need to keep their members and guests safe. Having uniformed police officers enforcing normal laws involving assault, stalking, disturbing the peace, etc. isn't a horrible idea compared to having less regulated private security making citizen's arrests. That's why many (not all) churches hire off-duty uniformed officers, at least for traffic management needs. As for the tax rate, churches do pay the officers already, so if it's not enough to offset the costs of the officer, the rates should be raised. Seems like a fee based payment structure makes the most sense when particular services are needed.
- inetknght 10y ago
  Churches should use some of their tax-free money to provide assistance to the poor and needy like they're supposed to. The poor certainly can't afford to fight anything in the courtroom. The needy (such as people with mental issues) certainly shouldn't be arrested just because they're going to a church.
  - humanrebar 10y ago
    > Churches should use some of their tax-free money to provide assistance to the poor and needy like they're supposed to. They should and do. Off the top of my head, I have personally seen churches run or partner in addiction recovery programs, social work, employment counseling, relationship counseling, cash-to-pay-bills ministries, soup kitchens, homeless shelters, and relief-and-rebuilding for for war-torn or disaster-stricken areas. How many hospitals have "Methodist", "Presbyterian", "Saint", etc. in the name? "Church buys drug dens, renovates them, and turns it into a family homes for poor families" (an actual ministry I've served at) doesn't exactly make headlines, so people get a distorted view of what actually goes on. > The needy (such as people with mental issues) certainly shouldn't be arrested just because they're going to a church. Agreed. I could be more clear. The issue here is that churches (the good ones anyway) tend to try to help whoever needs help. So, like hospitals and shelters, tend to help people other places would just as soon deny admission to. An implication of being around mentally unstable people is that they do mentally unstable things sometimes. So you need to provide space for them while still providing safety and healing for everyone.
- michaelt 10y ago
  As a foreigner, I've never really understood why places like universities in America are allowed to have their own police forces. After all, it creates a conflict of interests - is my job to enforce the law, or to protect the organisation that pays my wages? It's important because if I find myself faced with a nonviolent but disruptive protest against my employer, and I have a truncheon in my hand, there's a risk my loyalty will drive me to do the wrong thing. Here in the UK, universities' security guards are equivalent to mall cops and nightclub bouncers - they can deal with minor things, but their powers are limited. If someone needs to be arrested, they have to call the real police.
  - maxerickson 10y ago
    Is it even weirder than you think? In many places in the US you will have a municipal police force and also a county sheriff (and then layered over that a state police, other state law enforcement officials (game wardens and such) and the various federal agencies that do law enforcement).
  - true_religion 10y ago
    University police work closely with the local police. They don't have jails, mourges, or investigation units. Basically they deal with traffic and nuisance complaints.
- DanBC 10y ago
  > especially involving people with psychiatric issues. The response to people in psychiatric distress should not be police, especially not armed police. We don't know how many people US police shot and kill each year because they don't count the numbers, but we think that it's about 1000 people per year, and we think that about half of those have mental illness.
  - humanrebar 10y ago
    > The response to people in psychiatric distress should not be police, especially not armed police. A uniformed response to an assault, even if that's just taking an official police report, is absolutely a reasonable expectation. You're probably envisioning a specific kind of psychiatric incident. I understand that inference. Let me try to clarify here. You seem to be speaking more abstractly, but I have personal experience with this sort of thing happening on a small church campus without professional security. Churches are somewhat special in this area because they don't refuse service just because someone is different, homeless, or strange. And they don't generally consider it someone else's problem and just evict people who aren't lucrative clients or whatever. But they also have to say 'no' or address conflict at times. For example, a true one, a mentally ill person might be refusing professional help, asks for money for rent from the church, and then gets agitated at the conditions attached to the money (see a doctor, take your pills, join a program for the drugs, etc.). Also you have things like relationship counseling happening on site (domestic-disturbance-type situations, but at church). Schools (mom wants to pick up kids, doesn't have custody, etc.). And lot of this stuff is all volunteer-staffed. Churches are holistic and generally have to deal with any given problem any particular visitor or member might have. And they have to be sensitive to people who are healing while protecting everyone around. People are just messy, and at scale, there are absolutely advantages to having a public servant in good standing on the scene. I'm not saying that's the only way to do it, but it's a lot more complicated and acute than people in these comments seem to realize. Bottom line is that, despite what people watch on TV shows, churches tend to be for people that need healing of various types. They are often people with issues. Wealthy, balanced, fulfilled people often decide they don't need church, correctly nor not, so there are significant selection effects going on here. Due to the law of averages, the larger churches probably have significant security incidents happen on a regular basis.
Cthulhu_ 10y ago
If it wasn't for the "armed" part, I'd consider this at the same level as a neighbourhood watch, mall cops, or private security guards - really nothing sensational about it, and with some church communities having tens of thousands of people, it's really not odd to have some kind of security. And since it's America, going from security to armed security is a small step. Right to bear arms and such.
TYPE_FASTER 10y ago
Sounds like HOA are already doing this...kinda... http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-01-25/news/ct-met-private-police-ruling-0126-20130126_1_traffic-rules-homeowners-association-illinois-supreme-court http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-01-25/news/ct-met-pr...

by dade_ 10y ago

NoGravitas 10y ago

This is how you get burbclaves.

humanrebar 10y ago

> This is what happens when people watch too much sensationalized news. I understand but there have been mass murders at both schools and churches in the last couple years. And churches routinely have lower-level keeping-the-peace issues, especially involving people with psychiatric issues. Security isn't optional because churches need to keep their members and guests safe. Having uniformed police officers enforcing normal laws involving assault, stalking, disturbing the peace, etc. isn't a horrible idea compared to having less regulated private security making citizen's arrests. That's why many (not all) churches hire off-duty uniformed officers, at least for traffic management needs. As for the tax rate, churches do pay the officers already, so if it's not enough to offset the costs of the officer, the rates should be raised. Seems like a fee based payment structure makes the most sense when particular services are needed.

inetknght 10y ago
Churches should use some of their tax-free money to provide assistance to the poor and needy like they're supposed to. The poor certainly can't afford to fight anything in the courtroom. The needy (such as people with mental issues) certainly shouldn't be arrested just because they're going to a church.
- humanrebar 10y ago
  > Churches should use some of their tax-free money to provide assistance to the poor and needy like they're supposed to. They should and do. Off the top of my head, I have personally seen churches run or partner in addiction recovery programs, social work, employment counseling, relationship counseling, cash-to-pay-bills ministries, soup kitchens, homeless shelters, and relief-and-rebuilding for for war-torn or disaster-stricken areas. How many hospitals have "Methodist", "Presbyterian", "Saint", etc. in the name? "Church buys drug dens, renovates them, and turns it into a family homes for poor families" (an actual ministry I've served at) doesn't exactly make headlines, so people get a distorted view of what actually goes on. > The needy (such as people with mental issues) certainly shouldn't be arrested just because they're going to a church. Agreed. I could be more clear. The issue here is that churches (the good ones anyway) tend to try to help whoever needs help. So, like hospitals and shelters, tend to help people other places would just as soon deny admission to. An implication of being around mentally unstable people is that they do mentally unstable things sometimes. So you need to provide space for them while still providing safety and healing for everyone.
michaelt 10y ago
As a foreigner, I've never really understood why places like universities in America are allowed to have their own police forces. After all, it creates a conflict of interests - is my job to enforce the law, or to protect the organisation that pays my wages? It's important because if I find myself faced with a nonviolent but disruptive protest against my employer, and I have a truncheon in my hand, there's a risk my loyalty will drive me to do the wrong thing. Here in the UK, universities' security guards are equivalent to mall cops and nightclub bouncers - they can deal with minor things, but their powers are limited. If someone needs to be arrested, they have to call the real police.
- maxerickson 10y ago
  Is it even weirder than you think? In many places in the US you will have a municipal police force and also a county sheriff (and then layered over that a state police, other state law enforcement officials (game wardens and such) and the various federal agencies that do law enforcement).
- true_religion 10y ago
  University police work closely with the local police. They don't have jails, mourges, or investigation units. Basically they deal with traffic and nuisance complaints.
DanBC 10y ago
> especially involving people with psychiatric issues. The response to people in psychiatric distress should not be police, especially not armed police. We don't know how many people US police shot and kill each year because they don't count the numbers, but we think that it's about 1000 people per year, and we think that about half of those have mental illness.
- humanrebar 10y ago
  > The response to people in psychiatric distress should not be police, especially not armed police. A uniformed response to an assault, even if that's just taking an official police report, is absolutely a reasonable expectation. You're probably envisioning a specific kind of psychiatric incident. I understand that inference. Let me try to clarify here. You seem to be speaking more abstractly, but I have personal experience with this sort of thing happening on a small church campus without professional security. Churches are somewhat special in this area because they don't refuse service just because someone is different, homeless, or strange. And they don't generally consider it someone else's problem and just evict people who aren't lucrative clients or whatever. But they also have to say 'no' or address conflict at times. For example, a true one, a mentally ill person might be refusing professional help, asks for money for rent from the church, and then gets agitated at the conditions attached to the money (see a doctor, take your pills, join a program for the drugs, etc.). Also you have things like relationship counseling happening on site (domestic-disturbance-type situations, but at church). Schools (mom wants to pick up kids, doesn't have custody, etc.). And lot of this stuff is all volunteer-staffed. Churches are holistic and generally have to deal with any given problem any particular visitor or member might have. And they have to be sensitive to people who are healing while protecting everyone around. People are just messy, and at scale, there are absolutely advantages to having a public servant in good standing on the scene. I'm not saying that's the only way to do it, but it's a lot more complicated and acute than people in these comments seem to realize. Bottom line is that, despite what people watch on TV shows, churches tend to be for people that need healing of various types. They are often people with issues. Wealthy, balanced, fulfilled people often decide they don't need church, correctly nor not, so there are significant selection effects going on here. Due to the law of averages, the larger churches probably have significant security incidents happen on a regular basis.

Cthulhu_ 10y ago

If it wasn't for the "armed" part, I'd consider this at the same level as a neighbourhood watch, mall cops, or private security guards - really nothing sensational about it, and with some church communities having tens of thousands of people, it's really not odd to have some kind of security. And since it's America, going from security to armed security is a small step. Right to bear arms and such.

TYPE_FASTER 10y ago

Sounds like HOA are already doing this...kinda... http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-01-25/news/ct-met-private-police-ruling-0126-20130126_1_traffic-rules-homeowners-association-illinois-supreme-court http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-01-25/news/ct-met-pr...