4 ms·

I think you have some good points but I disagree with what you think this man deserves (disclaimer : I'm an opponent to death penalty and it's even illegal in m

by pingou 16y ago

I think you have some good points but I disagree with what you think this man deserves (disclaimer : I'm an opponent to death penalty and it's even illegal in my country), his actions will have very serious consequences, and he acted stupidly, but I don't think he did this in an evil way, it's very human once you have some power to misuse it, and I think a lot (well I mean a few percent) will have done the same thing, so I'm not even sure it's a deviant behaviour, it's not like he had directly murdered anyone, maybe some will die because of him, but to me he doesn't deserve the same punishment as a murderer. I think he's not the only one to blame, he shouldn't have access to all this sensitive data in the first place. And maybe at the end, all this leaked informations will have a positive feedback on the USA, like in christianity, confess your faults and you'll feel better. But I doubt it.

lionhearted 16y ago
Thank you for the sincere comment and I respect your position - a lot of the usage of the death penalty is really morally questionable in my eyes, things like executing people who are barely mentally competent and making a big dog and pony show out of it. That sort of thing doesn't seem like it'd reduce crime or give any real feeling of closure to a victim, or really accomplish much at all. So I respect your position. If you think the death penalty is wrong, full stop, then I guess it's just agree to disagree because I think there are times when it's appropriate - though, like I said, I respect your position. But if you'll ask the question of, "If there's a death penalty available for prosecutors, when should they seek it?" I'm not convinced that the answer to that is just when the person does obviously horrifying things. Put like this - I have an expression that goes, "Satan urinates on toilet seats." I don't actually believe in Satan, mind you, what I mean is - I think evil originates less from bad motives like you see in the movies and more from people being careless, reckless, and leaving a mess. Most people are careful in a clean public bathroom, but once it gets a little messy, it gets really messy really fast. So I always imagined that, if there's a Satan, he goes around being the first one to pee on a clean toilet seat. Then all the decent people who would normally not make a mess both have to stay further away from the now-dirty bathroom, and care less if they make more of a mess. So by punishing this man for very casually, unthinkingly sharing very important information and risking lives, I think he's absolutely culpable. If there's any place where the death penalty could dissuade people, or get them thinking more, it's here. So a someone in military intelligence who thinks about leaking classified material has to ask themselves, "Is this important that I'm willing to die to leak it?" And thus, I don't think it'd suppress people who come across something really, really bad. But this guy was talking about dumping classified material wantonly on an anonymous server. People were going to die as a result of his actions. I wouldn't be for seeking the death penalty based on just the video of the helicopter incident, but all sorts of material just for the hell of it? And on top of that, he took specific oaths to protect his country and his fellow soldier. He wasn't conscripted. He wasn't a random kid playing around on the internet. He volunteered to join the armed forces, and then he was trained and instructed before he become an intelligence analyst. He would've had a choice if he wanted go into that role in the armed forces, and he would've been instructed repeatedly that sharing classified information could kill his fellow servicemen and women. I agree with you that there could be some much-needed security improvements as a result of his actions, but it's not like some kid was hacking around on servers from the internet, this is a man who carefully planned to bring materials into an area sealed off from the internet and sneak the information out. He's smart enough to steal classified information, but he's either reckless or ambivalent to the fact that people are very likely to die as a result of his actions. If you seek the death penalty for this, you send a clear message that risking a fellow serivemen's and innocent civillians' lives haphazardly for a thrill is considered the highest of crimes and deserves the highest of punishments. I respect your position on the death penalty in general, but if you have a death penalty, I think this is just about as bad of a crime as a member of the armed forces can commit.
- rbanffy 16y ago
  > "Is this important that I'm willing to die to leak it?" In an ideal world, people should not be confronted with the do-The Right-Thing-and-die-for-it vs. business-as-usual dilemma. Not even after military training. > he took specific oaths to protect his country and his fellow soldier. Couldn't politically sabotaging this war (by leaking embarrassing videos and criminal backdoor political deals) be interpreted as making his country and colleagues safer by sending them home sooner? The invasion of Iraq is totally wrong, messed-up thing that in a reasonable world would never happen. Iraq was a mess before the war, but now it is a huge bombed-back-to-stone-age mess that badly needs cleaning. And I doubt a continued invading force can help with that. What Iraq needs is schools, law enforcement, separation of church and state, a functioning, modern, justice system and, hopefully, in one or two generations they will be back where they could be five years ago had a competent intervention been executed. I am not advocating treason and I am not going into his apparently childish motives. It's unclear if people would really die from his actions. If you leak supply-run schedules for two months in the future, this hardly puts any lives in danger - the schedules just have to be changed (and if it becomes known the schedules were leaked, it creates a good opportunity to expose your military opposition) As far as crimes go this whole war is an endless supply of them. If the US had to invade someone else random for what Afghanistan was supporting, it could as well be Mexico. It would, at least, make shipping tanks easier. Saddam was a Very Bad Person, but he wasn't stupid. It's safe to assume it would be possible to bend him to reason with a far smaller human price than an invasion. And I think this is why we try not to discuss politics here...
  - lionhearted 16y ago
    > > "Is this important that I'm willing to die to leak it?" Can't just quote out of context... there's a lot of other stuff around that quote... > Couldn't politically sabotaging this war (by leaking embarrassing videos and criminal backdoor political deals) be interpreted as making his country and colleagues safer by sending them home sooner? First, that's some pretty tortured logic. Second, he wasn't just leaking "embarassing videos and criminal backdoor political deals" - that's where the whole quoting out of context problem comes in. It'd be a lot more understandable if he was just releasing that sort of info - he said he "exfiltrating possibly the largest data spillage in American history" - he stole all sorts of info. That's the crazy-go-dangerous-reckless-endagerment-treason part right there. That's not the right thing to do. > It's unclear if people would really die from his actions. If you leak supply-run schedules for two months in the future, this hardly puts any lives in danger - the schedules just have to be changed In theory. In practice, there's millions of moving pieces in the war, and some things like best practices for specific events can't be changed. If he dumped everything classified he had access to, that'd be a HUGE benefit for people who want to kill the people he's serving with. > And I think this is why we try not to discuss politics here... Riddle me this, mate - does it feel weird making a comment supporting what this guy did in an earlier comment, and then responding to someone you disagree with saying that's why we try not to discuss politics? I mean, you're obviously a smart guy, but you're quoting me out of context, ignoring facts of what he did, commenting favorably and calling the guy brave, and then in response to a comment you disagree with you say this is why we don't discuss politics? C'mon man. I mean, if anyone cares, I wasn't at any point in favor of the Iraq invasion or ongoing war either, but a military analyst can't randomly steal classified data without flinching - maybe taking just the helicopter video could be sympathetic, but stealing random data like supply chains and timetables is totally unforgivably putting people's lives at risk for no good reason.
rdl 16y ago
I agree he's not the only one to blame. The FSO of the SCIF where he (presumably) worked should be investigated. His CO and the rest of his chain of command should be investigated as well. The (contract investigator, most likely) who was involved in granting him his clearance, too. I'm pretty sure that all happens automatically when something like this happens -- at the very least, they need to work on making sure this doesn't happen again, but it's hard to believe they were 100% blameless in this. The actual IT systems used by the military for secret-or-higher classified data are kind of pathetic, actually. Certain things are done well (the "air gap" model for networks, and generally the military is decent at key management, and most members granted security clearance are good about changing passwords and reporting security probes, vs. commercial environments. However, the technology itself is often windows (2k, xp, vista), and isn't exactly the best managed network in the world. To some extent being "air gapped" causes them to be lazy about other forms of security. A lot of this has to do with the exceptionally slow procurement and integration cycle of the military, but at the core, windows is just not a great solution for building an office automation system with 100% accountability for every file. (I'm actually working on a startup that will address this market; it's a good market, but I've also been someone at personal safety risk from security violations, so it is more compelling to me than writing another fb game or ipad app.)
- elblanco 16y ago
  I believe he did the exfiltration while in Iraq. The security environment there is quite different than what you'll find CONUS. http://articles.latimes.com/2006/apr/10/world/fg-disks10 http://articles.latimes.com/2006/apr/10/world/fg-disks10
  - rdl 16y ago
    I'm in Baghdad. A SCIF is a SCIF, officially (which is where JWICS would be found). Generally they rely on armed guards and 24x7 presence vs. vault doors here, but it's still within the spec.
    - elblanco 16y ago

by pingou 16y ago

lionhearted 16y ago

Thank you for the sincere comment and I respect your position - a lot of the usage of the death penalty is really morally questionable in my eyes, things like executing people who are barely mentally competent and making a big dog and pony show out of it. That sort of thing doesn't seem like it'd reduce crime or give any real feeling of closure to a victim, or really accomplish much at all. So I respect your position. If you think the death penalty is wrong, full stop, then I guess it's just agree to disagree because I think there are times when it's appropriate - though, like I said, I respect your position. But if you'll ask the question of, "If there's a death penalty available for prosecutors, when should they seek it?" I'm not convinced that the answer to that is just when the person does obviously horrifying things. Put like this - I have an expression that goes, "Satan urinates on toilet seats." I don't actually believe in Satan, mind you, what I mean is - I think evil originates less from bad motives like you see in the movies and more from people being careless, reckless, and leaving a mess. Most people are careful in a clean public bathroom, but once it gets a little messy, it gets really messy really fast. So I always imagined that, if there's a Satan, he goes around being the first one to pee on a clean toilet seat. Then all the decent people who would normally not make a mess both have to stay further away from the now-dirty bathroom, and care less if they make more of a mess. So by punishing this man for very casually, unthinkingly sharing very important information and risking lives, I think he's absolutely culpable. If there's any place where the death penalty could dissuade people, or get them thinking more, it's here. So a someone in military intelligence who thinks about leaking classified material has to ask themselves, "Is this important that I'm willing to die to leak it?" And thus, I don't think it'd suppress people who come across something really, really bad. But this guy was talking about dumping classified material wantonly on an anonymous server. People were going to die as a result of his actions. I wouldn't be for seeking the death penalty based on just the video of the helicopter incident, but all sorts of material just for the hell of it? And on top of that, he took specific oaths to protect his country and his fellow soldier. He wasn't conscripted. He wasn't a random kid playing around on the internet. He volunteered to join the armed forces, and then he was trained and instructed before he become an intelligence analyst. He would've had a choice if he wanted go into that role in the armed forces, and he would've been instructed repeatedly that sharing classified information could kill his fellow servicemen and women. I agree with you that there could be some much-needed security improvements as a result of his actions, but it's not like some kid was hacking around on servers from the internet, this is a man who carefully planned to bring materials into an area sealed off from the internet and sneak the information out. He's smart enough to steal classified information, but he's either reckless or ambivalent to the fact that people are very likely to die as a result of his actions. If you seek the death penalty for this, you send a clear message that risking a fellow serivemen's and innocent civillians' lives haphazardly for a thrill is considered the highest of crimes and deserves the highest of punishments. I respect your position on the death penalty in general, but if you have a death penalty, I think this is just about as bad of a crime as a member of the armed forces can commit.

rbanffy 16y ago
> "Is this important that I'm willing to die to leak it?" In an ideal world, people should not be confronted with the do-The Right-Thing-and-die-for-it vs. business-as-usual dilemma. Not even after military training. > he took specific oaths to protect his country and his fellow soldier. Couldn't politically sabotaging this war (by leaking embarrassing videos and criminal backdoor political deals) be interpreted as making his country and colleagues safer by sending them home sooner? The invasion of Iraq is totally wrong, messed-up thing that in a reasonable world would never happen. Iraq was a mess before the war, but now it is a huge bombed-back-to-stone-age mess that badly needs cleaning. And I doubt a continued invading force can help with that. What Iraq needs is schools, law enforcement, separation of church and state, a functioning, modern, justice system and, hopefully, in one or two generations they will be back where they could be five years ago had a competent intervention been executed. I am not advocating treason and I am not going into his apparently childish motives. It's unclear if people would really die from his actions. If you leak supply-run schedules for two months in the future, this hardly puts any lives in danger - the schedules just have to be changed (and if it becomes known the schedules were leaked, it creates a good opportunity to expose your military opposition) As far as crimes go this whole war is an endless supply of them. If the US had to invade someone else random for what Afghanistan was supporting, it could as well be Mexico. It would, at least, make shipping tanks easier. Saddam was a Very Bad Person, but he wasn't stupid. It's safe to assume it would be possible to bend him to reason with a far smaller human price than an invasion. And I think this is why we try not to discuss politics here...
- lionhearted 16y ago
  > > "Is this important that I'm willing to die to leak it?" Can't just quote out of context... there's a lot of other stuff around that quote... > Couldn't politically sabotaging this war (by leaking embarrassing videos and criminal backdoor political deals) be interpreted as making his country and colleagues safer by sending them home sooner? First, that's some pretty tortured logic. Second, he wasn't just leaking "embarassing videos and criminal backdoor political deals" - that's where the whole quoting out of context problem comes in. It'd be a lot more understandable if he was just releasing that sort of info - he said he "exfiltrating possibly the largest data spillage in American history" - he stole all sorts of info. That's the crazy-go-dangerous-reckless-endagerment-treason part right there. That's not the right thing to do. > It's unclear if people would really die from his actions. If you leak supply-run schedules for two months in the future, this hardly puts any lives in danger - the schedules just have to be changed In theory. In practice, there's millions of moving pieces in the war, and some things like best practices for specific events can't be changed. If he dumped everything classified he had access to, that'd be a HUGE benefit for people who want to kill the people he's serving with. > And I think this is why we try not to discuss politics here... Riddle me this, mate - does it feel weird making a comment supporting what this guy did in an earlier comment, and then responding to someone you disagree with saying that's why we try not to discuss politics? I mean, you're obviously a smart guy, but you're quoting me out of context, ignoring facts of what he did, commenting favorably and calling the guy brave, and then in response to a comment you disagree with you say this is why we don't discuss politics? C'mon man. I mean, if anyone cares, I wasn't at any point in favor of the Iraq invasion or ongoing war either, but a military analyst can't randomly steal classified data without flinching - maybe taking just the helicopter video could be sympathetic, but stealing random data like supply chains and timetables is totally unforgivably putting people's lives at risk for no good reason.

rdl 16y ago

I agree he's not the only one to blame. The FSO of the SCIF where he (presumably) worked should be investigated. His CO and the rest of his chain of command should be investigated as well. The (contract investigator, most likely) who was involved in granting him his clearance, too. I'm pretty sure that all happens automatically when something like this happens -- at the very least, they need to work on making sure this doesn't happen again, but it's hard to believe they were 100% blameless in this. The actual IT systems used by the military for secret-or-higher classified data are kind of pathetic, actually. Certain things are done well (the "air gap" model for networks, and generally the military is decent at key management, and most members granted security clearance are good about changing passwords and reporting security probes, vs. commercial environments. However, the technology itself is often windows (2k, xp, vista), and isn't exactly the best managed network in the world. To some extent being "air gapped" causes them to be lazy about other forms of security. A lot of this has to do with the exceptionally slow procurement and integration cycle of the military, but at the core, windows is just not a great solution for building an office automation system with 100% accountability for every file. (I'm actually working on a startup that will address this market; it's a good market, but I've also been someone at personal safety risk from security violations, so it is more compelling to me than writing another fb game or ipad app.)

elblanco 16y ago
I believe he did the exfiltration while in Iraq. The security environment there is quite different than what you'll find CONUS. http://articles.latimes.com/2006/apr/10/world/fg-disks10 http://articles.latimes.com/2006/apr/10/world/fg-disks10
- rdl 16y ago
  I'm in Baghdad. A SCIF is a SCIF, officially (which is where JWICS would be found). Generally they rely on armed guards and 24x7 presence vs. vault doors here, but it's still within the spec.
  - elblanco 16y ago