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I read about all the crap Amazon employees have to deal with. So it's hard to view anything this guy does in a good light. IMO, anyway. I wonder how much this p

I read about all the crap Amazon employees have to deal with. So it's hard to view anything this guy does in a good light. IMO, anyway. I wonder how much this philosophy contributes to the horror stories we hear out here.

mrslave 10y ago
Funny, I've heard some of them too and they only made me want to apply there! I haven't given it too much thought but Jeff Bezos is probably one of the industry leaders I admire the most. ducks
KaiP 10y ago
That seems more like a values thing than a process thing. I doubt that this process would produce terrible work conditions if Amazon actually cared about their employees well-being.
- branchless 10y ago
  Capitalism is a game of extracting as much labour surplus value as possible. By definition an article praising Bezos' success must have employees not realising anywhere near their value add. Bezos does not do the actual work, he facilitates the labour of others. And if he can do that and underpay them more than someone else would then we have a winner. This is the system.
  - golergka 10y ago
    Implying that skillfully faciliating and organizing other's labour isn't work? Well, early on, soviet government and their 1918 predeccessors thought the same. They ended up with a lot of 'liberated' workers and farmers, and no managers and business owners. Strangely, they had to restore capitalist system and then to invite foreign specialists and managers to make the industry even a little bit operational. Turns out, there isn't much you can do with dumb labour alone.
    - branchless 10y ago
      It is work but workers are not in a position to bargain for their value added. Bezos keeps it. We should tax land not income and stop forcing people to under-sell their labour. Spare me the "Russia" extreme example. This isn't quantitative, we can dislike that extreme and also the extreme celebrated by the USA which fails so many.
      - golergka 10y ago
        You're saying that USA fails many as if it's a problem. Which implies that in your opinion, no one in a state should fail. Why?
AndrewUnmuted 10y ago
The horror stories don't resemble anything that I experienced during my five years at Amazon. I think they're largely propagated by NYT and friends because Amazon out-competed them in their own space. Amazon is the best run company I ever worked for. By far.
- Terr_ 10y ago
  Any particular litmus-test items to distinguish good Amazon teams from bad ones?
  - vaidhy 10y ago
    Ask them for the ticket count metrics - number of tickets, severity and age of open ones. Overly ambitious managers tend to build unstable systems that will break under load. I am going through my second stint at Amazon and I enjoy working there. However, it is not the best place for everyone.
    - jrauser 10y ago
      This is the correct answer. My advice for amazon SDEs is: either your manager puts operational excellence as their top priority or you need to find a new manager.
    - Zombieball 10y ago
      Just to elaborate On the priority bit. Page count during on-call rotations is probably a huge metric to watch.
    - donavanm 10y ago
      That's one (important) aspect. When looking at a team or individual I check wiki contributions, design documents, commits, code review feedback provided to others, ticket queue depth/volume, "cm" volume, customer forums, broadcast sessions, and org role/level/tenure blend. Also for teams get a referral or just send a "cold" email to have coffee with an IC on the team. I'd hazard that most of those data sources work for most of the teams at Amazon.
eclipxe 10y ago
Take what you read with a grain of salt. Amazon can be an amazing place for some and horrible place for others. The horrible stories are more interesting to tell and stick with you but doesn't make them the rule.

mrslave 10y ago

Funny, I've heard some of them too and they only made me want to apply there! I haven't given it too much thought but Jeff Bezos is probably one of the industry leaders I admire the most. ducks

KaiP 10y ago

That seems more like a values thing than a process thing. I doubt that this process would produce terrible work conditions if Amazon actually cared about their employees well-being.

branchless 10y ago
Capitalism is a game of extracting as much labour surplus value as possible. By definition an article praising Bezos' success must have employees not realising anywhere near their value add. Bezos does not do the actual work, he facilitates the labour of others. And if he can do that and underpay them more than someone else would then we have a winner. This is the system.
- golergka 10y ago
  Implying that skillfully faciliating and organizing other's labour isn't work? Well, early on, soviet government and their 1918 predeccessors thought the same. They ended up with a lot of 'liberated' workers and farmers, and no managers and business owners. Strangely, they had to restore capitalist system and then to invite foreign specialists and managers to make the industry even a little bit operational. Turns out, there isn't much you can do with dumb labour alone.
  - branchless 10y ago
    It is work but workers are not in a position to bargain for their value added. Bezos keeps it. We should tax land not income and stop forcing people to under-sell their labour. Spare me the "Russia" extreme example. This isn't quantitative, we can dislike that extreme and also the extreme celebrated by the USA which fails so many.
    - golergka 10y ago
      You're saying that USA fails many as if it's a problem. Which implies that in your opinion, no one in a state should fail. Why?

AndrewUnmuted 10y ago

The horror stories don't resemble anything that I experienced during my five years at Amazon. I think they're largely propagated by NYT and friends because Amazon out-competed them in their own space. Amazon is the best run company I ever worked for. By far.

Terr_ 10y ago
Any particular litmus-test items to distinguish good Amazon teams from bad ones?
- vaidhy 10y ago
  Ask them for the ticket count metrics - number of tickets, severity and age of open ones. Overly ambitious managers tend to build unstable systems that will break under load. I am going through my second stint at Amazon and I enjoy working there. However, it is not the best place for everyone.
  - jrauser 10y ago
    This is the correct answer. My advice for amazon SDEs is: either your manager puts operational excellence as their top priority or you need to find a new manager.
  - Zombieball 10y ago
    Just to elaborate On the priority bit. Page count during on-call rotations is probably a huge metric to watch.
  - donavanm 10y ago
    That's one (important) aspect. When looking at a team or individual I check wiki contributions, design documents, commits, code review feedback provided to others, ticket queue depth/volume, "cm" volume, customer forums, broadcast sessions, and org role/level/tenure blend. Also for teams get a referral or just send a "cold" email to have coffee with an IC on the team. I'd hazard that most of those data sources work for most of the teams at Amazon.

eclipxe 10y ago

Take what you read with a grain of salt. Amazon can be an amazing place for some and horrible place for others. The horrible stories are more interesting to tell and stick with you but doesn't make them the rule.