7 ms·

A Lizard with Scales That Behave Like a Cellular Automaton

145 points by jasonhansel 10y ago

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
modzu 10y ago
what can we feed it to play the game of life
- ouid 10y ago
  anything
palad1n 10y ago
Wolfram should be all over this.
- leblancfg 10y ago
  I expect a self-aggrandizing blog post on it any day now.
  - sillysaurus3 10y ago
    Complete with comments from people who won't stop talking about how overbearing Wolfram is.
    - mmjaa 10y ago
      True. But consider this - there's been enough precedent on this particular issue, that we could just be talking to a bot/AI, already, albeit one running on wet-ware ..
      - pvg 10y ago
        Consider that bringing it up even when Wolfram isn't even mentioned is really, really boring.
  - tempodox 10y ago
    Someone should publish a scientific paper, “The Insufferability of Stephen Wolfram as a Self-Proving Hypothesis” and win the Turing Award with it. Maybe then we could all just stop wasting digital ink about it. And remember that there's no such thing as bad publicity.
jfarlow 10y ago
Turing's paper [1] is pretty impressive. Well before the mechanics of molecular biology were understood, Turing was able to reason out how you could use a 'few lines of (reusable) (biological) code' to produce patterns as sophisticated (and seemingly unrelated) as zebra stripes, leopard spots, and even the shapes of tissues, the number of digits on a hand, and the morphology of even a whole organism. And he was mostly correct once we came to be able to actually describe the physical systems biology uses for patterning. One example of a generalizable code for patterning by 'reaction diffusion': - Set up a 'node' that has an inverted feedback loop for producing a 'morphogen' (produce less when lots, lots when less). - Let the morphogen diffuse through a field. - Digitize the morphogen concentration by some thresholded sensor. - Use an orthogonal 'clock' mechanism to freeze the field in different states digitized above. Generally though the simulation of biology runs into just way way way too many variables to be 'nicely' modeled. Part of the cool part is that when you have a routine that generates a spatial pattern established, tweaking parameters here and there create massive variation while still maintaining a coherent 'pattern'. A bit of chaos gives each run a fingerprint - literally. One of the other biological patterning mechanisms I like is the Notch pathway, relying on similar principles. [2] There are fewer variables in a chemical system, but similar reaction-diffusion related principles can be found in chemistry - which can often be 'pretty'. See the Belousov-Zhabotinsky reaction [3]. As an aside, I like that they reference the paper that describes now chameleons change color; "chameleons shift colour through active tuning of a lattice of guanine nanocrystals within a superficial thick layer of dermal iridophores." [4] [0] (actual research referenced) http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v544/n7649/full/nature22031.html http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v544/n7649/full/nature2... [1] (PDF! Turing's 1952, The Chemical Basis of Morphogenesis) http://dna.caltech.edu/courses/cs191/paperscs191/turing.pdf http://dna.caltech.edu/courses/cs191/paperscs191/turing.pdf [2] (Notch Patterning) http://www.cell.com/trends/cell-biology/fulltext/S0962-8924(12)00105-5 http://www.cell.com/trends/cell-biology/fulltext/S0962-8924(... [3] (B-Z Reaction) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JAqrRnKFHo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JAqrRnKFHo [4] (chameleon's color via guanine nanocrystals) https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms7368 https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms7368
tombert 10y ago
It's things like this that help validate my hypothesis: If you define something in mathematical theory, eventually we'll find some way to use it for modelling something. I've been fascinated by Cellular Automata since I read Wolfram "A New Kind of Science", but I was not overly sold that you could model the universe in the way he described. While I still think he was incredibly over-optimistic about the uses of cellular automata, I do wonder if after a number of years we'll find some more validation in nature.
- db48x 10y ago
  Wolfram's "A New Kind of Science" is extremely overstated. On the other hand, I think Turing first suggested that animal coloration might turn out to be related to cellular automata. Sadly that's the kind of over-broad suggestion that turns out to be largely untrue, with possibly only a few exceptions. Mosty it's probably X-inactivation.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - db48x 10y ago
    Well, now that it's morning I can't say that it's "mostly" X inactivation; male zebras and tigers are striped so that's not going to be X inactivation.
- goldenkey 10y ago
  I'm actually working on a CA that'll hopefully reproduce primitive life. Not Wolfram's way though. https://scrollto.com/life-a-universe-simulation/ https://scrollto.com/life-a-universe-simulation/
  - rtkwe 10y ago
    Have you read Permutation City by Greg Egan? It features a similar toy universe built as cellular automata idea.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
r3dk1ng 10y ago
Another cellular automata seen in animals: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_30 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_30
- samlittlewood 10y ago
  Conus Textile is very cool - good examples look just like computer simulations!
vbwiwvbiudbiuw 10y ago
Err well Cellular Automata were originally designed to simulate such cellular biological systems
- pvg 10y ago
  Not really. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellular_automaton#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellular_automaton#History
tim_hutton 10y ago
It seems odd to say "Mr. Turing" (referring to a period in the 1950s), given that he got his Phd in 1938. The article uses "Dr." for other people.
- sleepychu 10y ago
  I've submitted a correction :-)
- sangnoir 10y ago
  A couple of days/weeks ago I saw on HN (I think) contributers saying (and agreeing) that people with PhDs in the UK don't usually use/demand the title of 'Dr.' unless they are medical doctors. It might not be a mistake by the times.
ooqr 10y ago
I like the HN title more than the NYT title. Something behaving like a simulation is a funny way to describe it.
logicallee 10y ago
Oh, boy, little lizard, hope you're ready for a cease and desist from the owner of "this kind of science". :) (said in good fun)
mizzao 10y ago
Most cellular automata simulators are on a square grid, but that lizard's scales are on a hexagonal one. I wonder if that arrangement makes it easier to produce recurrent local patterns. Does anyone know if there is a cellular automata simulator on a hexagonal grid?
- ooqr 10y ago
  http://lmgtfy.com/?q=hexagonal+cellular+automaton http://lmgtfy.com/?q=hexagonal+cellular+automaton
- allenz 10y ago
  You can simulate a hexagonal lattice on a square grid: https://geometricolor.wordpress.com/2013/01/11/hexagonal-cellular-automata/ https://geometricolor.wordpress.com/2013/01/11/hexagonal-cel... Example in Golly, the most popular CA simulator: https://github.com/gollygang/ruletablerepository/wiki/TheRules#hexagonal-neighborhood https://github.com/gollygang/ruletablerepository/wiki/TheRul...
kburman 10y ago
This is what I got when I clicked on the link https://postimg.org/image/6n8pnqidj/ https://postimg.org/image/6n8pnqidj/ I thought it was some kind of joke or spam post until I scroll down to see this. https://postimg.org/image/onyt7vbdj/ https://postimg.org/image/onyt7vbdj/ Not the end when I tried to upload these screenshots to Imgur i received this https://postimg.org/image/z9g43te8n/ https://postimg.org/image/z9g43te8n/
- kburman 10y ago
  This is getting insane now postimg.org is down, don't believe check yourself https://ibb.co/mR1CO5 https://ibb.co/mR1CO5 Since I can't update my comment now, here are updated links for the image https://ibb.co/n79owQ https://ibb.co/n79owQ https://ibb.co/d6F6i5 https://ibb.co/d6F6i5 https://ibb.co/fo6CO5 https://ibb.co/fo6CO5

145 points by jasonhansel 10y ago

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

modzu 10y ago

what can we feed it to play the game of life

ouid 10y ago
anything

palad1n 10y ago

Wolfram should be all over this.

leblancfg 10y ago
I expect a self-aggrandizing blog post on it any day now.
- sillysaurus3 10y ago
  Complete with comments from people who won't stop talking about how overbearing Wolfram is.
  - mmjaa 10y ago
    True. But consider this - there's been enough precedent on this particular issue, that we could just be talking to a bot/AI, already, albeit one running on wet-ware ..
    - pvg 10y ago
      Consider that bringing it up even when Wolfram isn't even mentioned is really, really boring.
- tempodox 10y ago
  Someone should publish a scientific paper, “The Insufferability of Stephen Wolfram as a Self-Proving Hypothesis” and win the Turing Award with it. Maybe then we could all just stop wasting digital ink about it. And remember that there's no such thing as bad publicity.

jfarlow 10y ago

Turing's paper [1] is pretty impressive. Well before the mechanics of molecular biology were understood, Turing was able to reason out how you could use a 'few lines of (reusable) (biological) code' to produce patterns as sophisticated (and seemingly unrelated) as zebra stripes, leopard spots, and even the shapes of tissues, the number of digits on a hand, and the morphology of even a whole organism. And he was mostly correct once we came to be able to actually describe the physical systems biology uses for patterning. One example of a generalizable code for patterning by 'reaction diffusion': - Set up a 'node' that has an inverted feedback loop for producing a 'morphogen' (produce less when lots, lots when less). - Let the morphogen diffuse through a field. - Digitize the morphogen concentration by some thresholded sensor. - Use an orthogonal 'clock' mechanism to freeze the field in different states digitized above. Generally though the simulation of biology runs into just way way way too many variables to be 'nicely' modeled. Part of the cool part is that when you have a routine that generates a spatial pattern established, tweaking parameters here and there create massive variation while still maintaining a coherent 'pattern'. A bit of chaos gives each run a fingerprint - literally. One of the other biological patterning mechanisms I like is the Notch pathway, relying on similar principles. [2] There are fewer variables in a chemical system, but similar reaction-diffusion related principles can be found in chemistry - which can often be 'pretty'. See the Belousov-Zhabotinsky reaction [3]. As an aside, I like that they reference the paper that describes now chameleons change color; "chameleons shift colour through active tuning of a lattice of guanine nanocrystals within a superficial thick layer of dermal iridophores." [4] [0] (actual research referenced) http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v544/n7649/full/nature22031.html http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v544/n7649/full/nature2... [1] (PDF! Turing's 1952, The Chemical Basis of Morphogenesis) http://dna.caltech.edu/courses/cs191/paperscs191/turing.pdf http://dna.caltech.edu/courses/cs191/paperscs191/turing.pdf [2] (Notch Patterning) http://www.cell.com/trends/cell-biology/fulltext/S0962-8924(12)00105-5 http://www.cell.com/trends/cell-biology/fulltext/S0962-8924(... [3] (B-Z Reaction) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JAqrRnKFHo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JAqrRnKFHo [4] (chameleon's color via guanine nanocrystals) https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms7368 https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms7368

tombert 10y ago

It's things like this that help validate my hypothesis: If you define something in mathematical theory, eventually we'll find some way to use it for modelling something. I've been fascinated by Cellular Automata since I read Wolfram "A New Kind of Science", but I was not overly sold that you could model the universe in the way he described. While I still think he was incredibly over-optimistic about the uses of cellular automata, I do wonder if after a number of years we'll find some more validation in nature.

db48x 10y ago
Wolfram's "A New Kind of Science" is extremely overstated. On the other hand, I think Turing first suggested that animal coloration might turn out to be related to cellular automata. Sadly that's the kind of over-broad suggestion that turns out to be largely untrue, with possibly only a few exceptions. Mosty it's probably X-inactivation.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- db48x 10y ago
  Well, now that it's morning I can't say that it's "mostly" X inactivation; male zebras and tigers are striped so that's not going to be X inactivation.
goldenkey 10y ago
I'm actually working on a CA that'll hopefully reproduce primitive life. Not Wolfram's way though. https://scrollto.com/life-a-universe-simulation/ https://scrollto.com/life-a-universe-simulation/
- rtkwe 10y ago
  Have you read Permutation City by Greg Egan? It features a similar toy universe built as cellular automata idea.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

r3dk1ng 10y ago

Another cellular automata seen in animals: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_30 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_30

samlittlewood 10y ago
Conus Textile is very cool - good examples look just like computer simulations!

vbwiwvbiudbiuw 10y ago

Err well Cellular Automata were originally designed to simulate such cellular biological systems

pvg 10y ago
Not really. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellular_automaton#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellular_automaton#History

tim_hutton 10y ago

It seems odd to say "Mr. Turing" (referring to a period in the 1950s), given that he got his Phd in 1938. The article uses "Dr." for other people.

sleepychu 10y ago
I've submitted a correction :-)
sangnoir 10y ago
A couple of days/weeks ago I saw on HN (I think) contributers saying (and agreeing) that people with PhDs in the UK don't usually use/demand the title of 'Dr.' unless they are medical doctors. It might not be a mistake by the times.

ooqr 10y ago

I like the HN title more than the NYT title. Something behaving like a simulation is a funny way to describe it.

logicallee 10y ago

Oh, boy, little lizard, hope you're ready for a cease and desist from the owner of "this kind of science". :) (said in good fun)

mizzao 10y ago

Most cellular automata simulators are on a square grid, but that lizard's scales are on a hexagonal one. I wonder if that arrangement makes it easier to produce recurrent local patterns. Does anyone know if there is a cellular automata simulator on a hexagonal grid?

ooqr 10y ago
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=hexagonal+cellular+automaton http://lmgtfy.com/?q=hexagonal+cellular+automaton
allenz 10y ago
You can simulate a hexagonal lattice on a square grid: https://geometricolor.wordpress.com/2013/01/11/hexagonal-cellular-automata/ https://geometricolor.wordpress.com/2013/01/11/hexagonal-cel... Example in Golly, the most popular CA simulator: https://github.com/gollygang/ruletablerepository/wiki/TheRules#hexagonal-neighborhood https://github.com/gollygang/ruletablerepository/wiki/TheRul...

kburman 10y ago

This is what I got when I clicked on the link https://postimg.org/image/6n8pnqidj/ https://postimg.org/image/6n8pnqidj/ I thought it was some kind of joke or spam post until I scroll down to see this. https://postimg.org/image/onyt7vbdj/ https://postimg.org/image/onyt7vbdj/ Not the end when I tried to upload these screenshots to Imgur i received this https://postimg.org/image/z9g43te8n/ https://postimg.org/image/z9g43te8n/

kburman 10y ago
This is getting insane now postimg.org is down, don't believe check yourself https://ibb.co/mR1CO5 https://ibb.co/mR1CO5 Since I can't update my comment now, here are updated links for the image https://ibb.co/n79owQ https://ibb.co/n79owQ https://ibb.co/d6F6i5 https://ibb.co/d6F6i5 https://ibb.co/fo6CO5 https://ibb.co/fo6CO5