4 ms·

Another data point, possibly unrelated: conversion to Judaism. I don't have a source for this, but I have heard (and it has been my personal experience as well)

Another data point, possibly unrelated: conversion to Judaism. I don't have a source for this, but I have heard (and it has been my personal experience as well) that religious observance is correlated to acceptance of converts. In other words, more religious Jews tend to be more tolerant of converts than less religious Jews. I think this is because you really can't "convert" to cultural Judaism, and the cultural Jews I have known have found the idea of it kind of repellant, similarly to this article about Rachel Dolezal I just read[1]. But in the case of Judaism, if you're culturally Jewish and don't see any value in the religion, all you have is your experience of day-to-day life as a Jew. You can't convert to being picked on for being Jewish. Or black, or Hindu. But I think that attitude is more about building walls than empathy. If someone comes to you saying they're a huge fan of your whole situation, kicking sand in their face and shouting "YOU DON'T KNOW ME!" doesn't make the world a better place. The situation in Iran is complicated. Zoroastrianism is a protected group there, but it's extremely dangerous to be seen as welcoming converts in the Islamic republic. Simultaneously, to convert away is basically to accede a small amount of political power. I've heard (especially in Religion in Iran[2]) that there may be a Zoroastrian movement taking shape; as converts, those folks would certainly be welcoming of converts, but it's likely to make the established group anxious because if it gains too much attention it will lead to persecution of all Zoroastrians in Iran. So you have two overlapping marginal groups each trying to exaggerate the figures in opposite directions—which is sort of thematic for the kind of contradictions you see in Iran generally. [1]: http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/byblackscom/rachel-dolezal-is-not-black_b_15873620.html http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/byblackscom/rachel-dolezal-is-n... [2]: https://www.amazon.com/Religions-Iran-Prehistory-Richard-Foltz/dp/1780743084/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1492033031&sr=8-1&keywords=religions+of+iran https://www.amazon.com/Religions-Iran-Prehistory-Richard-Fol...

yazaddaruvala 10y ago
FWIW, they way I say this is, You can convert to Judaism, but you can only be born a Jew. i.e. The difference between a religion and an association with a culture.
- fusiongyro 10y ago
  I don't think any practicing Jew would make a distinction there. But Judaism predates distinctions of this sort—a fact that I think has irritated Western thought for thousands of years.
redsummer 10y ago
In the case of Judaism, Israel makes Orthodox conversion more useful since it doesn't accept you as a real Jew if you are a convert to a more weak tea version of Judaism. People who convert are usually stronger believers, so they would convert to the more undiluted version of the religion anyway. On the other hand, 'cultural' Jews are more likely to marry non-Jews, and absorb them into Judaism that way. And I suppose this leads to cultural Jews leaving Judaism too. I think I read somewhere that the descendants of all the founders of Reform Judaism ended up outside Judaism.
- fusiongyro 10y ago
  Israel will accept you for making aliyah with any conversion (or none, if you have even a small amount of Jewish blood). Being a "real Jew" in the eyes of Israel may have some cachet for someone... but I don't know anybody who made a decision about which movement to convert in on that basis. I also doubt seriously that the Orthodox movement experiences more conversion than the other movements. It's smaller than either the Reform or Conservative movements.
  - redsummer 10y ago
    "In Israel, only Orthodox conversions are recognized" http://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2015/10/10/445343896/in-israel-a-new-battle-over-who-qualifies-as-jewish http://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2015/10/10/445343896/i...
    - fusiongyro 10y ago
      For making aliyah, you do not have to have an Orthodox conversion. This issue really only comes up for marriage. And of course, Israel has (in their typical fashion) chosen the solution guaranteed to annoy the most people.
      - redsummer 10y ago
        That's the theory, but not the practice: http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.771725 http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.771725

yazaddaruvala 10y ago

FWIW, they way I say this is, You can convert to Judaism, but you can only be born a Jew. i.e. The difference between a religion and an association with a culture.

fusiongyro 10y ago
I don't think any practicing Jew would make a distinction there. But Judaism predates distinctions of this sort—a fact that I think has irritated Western thought for thousands of years.

redsummer 10y ago

In the case of Judaism, Israel makes Orthodox conversion more useful since it doesn't accept you as a real Jew if you are a convert to a more weak tea version of Judaism. People who convert are usually stronger believers, so they would convert to the more undiluted version of the religion anyway. On the other hand, 'cultural' Jews are more likely to marry non-Jews, and absorb them into Judaism that way. And I suppose this leads to cultural Jews leaving Judaism too. I think I read somewhere that the descendants of all the founders of Reform Judaism ended up outside Judaism.

fusiongyro 10y ago
Israel will accept you for making aliyah with any conversion (or none, if you have even a small amount of Jewish blood). Being a "real Jew" in the eyes of Israel may have some cachet for someone... but I don't know anybody who made a decision about which movement to convert in on that basis. I also doubt seriously that the Orthodox movement experiences more conversion than the other movements. It's smaller than either the Reform or Conservative movements.
- redsummer 10y ago
  "In Israel, only Orthodox conversions are recognized" http://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2015/10/10/445343896/in-israel-a-new-battle-over-who-qualifies-as-jewish http://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2015/10/10/445343896/i...
  - fusiongyro 10y ago
    For making aliyah, you do not have to have an Orthodox conversion. This issue really only comes up for marriage. And of course, Israel has (in their typical fashion) chosen the solution guaranteed to annoy the most people.
    - redsummer 10y ago
      That's the theory, but not the practice: http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.771725 http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.771725