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> The EC actually works Sorry that's absolute bull. Apart from an exception or two ECs have been sycophantic puppets, ever ready to grovel. It seems you weren'

by srean 10y ago

> The EC actually works Sorry that's absolute bull. Apart from an exception or two ECs have been sycophantic puppets, ever ready to grovel. It seems you weren't born yesterday, neither was I, so you would know this. Even if EC intends to do good, he/she cant do much until there is a formal complaint raised by the district magistrate (many are simply bought out). So even if the opposition cries itself hoarse, EC does zilch. I am not making any claims about the EVMs, just that the electoral process is no where close to as clean many of its proponents claim it to be. Tech alone cannot solve this problem. What we have here is the analogue of rubber hose decryption.

viksit 10y ago
> Sorry that's absolute bull. Apart from an exception or two ECs have been sycophantic puppets, ever ready to grovel. I strongly disagree with your assessment. The mechanics of what happens when polling starts as I remember it, - The EC assumes complete control over all civil services, including transferring people in response to independent assessment and complaints. - Courts in India can't interfere with the EC. The government is disallowed interference as well. The constitution guarantees this and has been upheld by judgments in the past years. - The chief EC commissioner can only be removed by impeachment in Parliament. The other two election commissioners can only be done so by the CEC's recommendation. - Senior officials from different states are election observers in other states - and they are liable to be suspended even if phone calls are recorded between them and a political appointee. - All paramilitary and police forces come under the command of the EC. As a result, they are free of machinations from the home ministry which is usually responsible for their control. - Candidates make multiple reports during the campaign process and the EC does strict accounting for all this. It bans liquor sales and drafts banks to report any overt cash transactions. I don't know where you're getting your information from, when you were born, why you think the EC is sycophantic, or how that would even help - but the EC's role in the Indian elections is more like a safe maker trying to hoodwink the safe cracker - it will never be perfect, but given its many constitutionally guaranteed rights, it is agile enough to try and stay a few steps ahead of the curve. It is this very flexibility via which the ECI can even think about opening something like this up to a challenge.
- srean 10y ago
  > I don't know where you're getting your information from, Using eyes and ears and just being aware of my surroundings. Trivial counterpoint. Pickup a state, say West Bengal. Count the number of egregious incidents of violence and intimidation reported by competing political parties and the media, including live videos. What action has the EC taken and what has that changed. > - The EC assumes complete control over all civil services, including transferring people in response to independent assessment and complaints. ... and then does what ? You are being completely naïve in the open bedfellows relationship with IAS and politicians. There are exceptions, but rare.
  - viksit 10y ago
    > Using eyes and ears and just being aware of my surroundings. Hmm, not quite the best sources of information then. Have you talked to anyone on the ground? Have you been an election observer or volunteered in any? Have you read the independent reviews of the EC? Talked in any detail to senior officers in any branch of the executive who may offer perspective? > Trivial counterpoint. Pickup a state, say West Bengal. Count the number of egregious incidents of violence and intimidation reported by competing political parties and the media, including live videos. What action has the EC taken and what has that changed. Hardly trivial. This is a law and order situation, and is dealt with appropriately. > ... and then does what ? You are being completely naïve in the open bedfellows relationship with IAS and politicians. There are exceptions, but rare. Naïveté is an easy thing to call upon in cases when information isn't easily accessible. Your statement, to me, makes it appear that not only could you have wrong or incomplete information shaped by public media - you're not willing to even consider that this may be the case!
    - srean 10y ago
      > Hmm, not quite the best sources of information then. Well, when I am standing in a queue to vote, I trust my eyes and ears more than what some report says about things that happened while I was standing there. > This is a law and order situation, and is dealt with appropriately. All that law and order violations were a means to an end and the end is tampering with the mandate and that is exactly where the EC has to step in. If all they can do is pass the buck and let the tampered mandate be counted as real, well it is not serving its one and only purpose. I am being charitable here in assuming goodfaith on EC's behalf. > Have you talked to anyone on the ground? yes many > Have you been an election observer or volunteered in any? volunteered yes, but not formally as an election observer and not as a part of any political outfit. > Have you read the independent reviews of the EC? Talked in any detail to senior officers in any branch of the executive who may offer perspective? some of it runs in the family so I do have some insiders perspective plus volunteerism does give me opportunities to interact with IAS officers in the field. And public media especially TV is crap, newspapers are somewhat better. There are one or two decent ones that I treat with some respect, rest are tabloid'ish garbage. But to the larger point, no, my opinions have very little to do with what goes on the popular media.
intended 10y ago
I was born much before yesterday, and I know how bad elections used to be, and how well they are now. An improvement wholly attributable to the EC.
- srean 10y ago
  That it has improved I will wholeheartedly agree. Much more is needed. I think one of the biggest contributions of EV has been to bring the costs of an election down (modulo normalization for inflation, population etc.). I dont have as much a respect for the EC as you seem to have. My disdain is targeted less towards "EC the institution", more towards the lack of a functional vertebra of the chief ECs that we have had (barring exceptions of course) However, we are still far far away from the ideal that every election in the country are free and fair. ...and finally thanks all for the discussion we had here.
  - intended 10y ago
    This is India man. The achievement of the EC is so phenomenal, that it's respect will endure. And the issues with the EC, from what I remember, were manufactured. Optics to deal with a strong EC. And I've been through the dacoit, booth capturing end of Indian history, it's genuinely an accomplishment, its nuts that it even worked (works) at the time it began to work. Edit: similarly with the SC. Both of these were institutions which were beyond reproach, and I pretty clearly remember the times they both got dragged into the political limelight. The issues were largely to deal with their growing power over the political class. And this is something which you'll see had support on all sides of the political aisle.
    - srean 10y ago
      Funny that you and I keep discussing here when we are pretty sure everybody has left the building. An institution that I find absolutely remarkable is the Indian army (I am clubbing navy and air force in the same bucket). What I find striking and particularly especially so when compared to the defense forces of countries that were born under similar circumstances (no not just Pakistan) is that it has never exerted its political will. Sadly things are changing now with the army taking on clearly politically motivated stances. Govts are making politically charged appointments. The govt and the forces have started to play a tango and tat is not a good development.

by srean 10y ago

viksit 10y ago

> Sorry that's absolute bull. Apart from an exception or two ECs have been sycophantic puppets, ever ready to grovel. I strongly disagree with your assessment. The mechanics of what happens when polling starts as I remember it, - The EC assumes complete control over all civil services, including transferring people in response to independent assessment and complaints. - Courts in India can't interfere with the EC. The government is disallowed interference as well. The constitution guarantees this and has been upheld by judgments in the past years. - The chief EC commissioner can only be removed by impeachment in Parliament. The other two election commissioners can only be done so by the CEC's recommendation. - Senior officials from different states are election observers in other states - and they are liable to be suspended even if phone calls are recorded between them and a political appointee. - All paramilitary and police forces come under the command of the EC. As a result, they are free of machinations from the home ministry which is usually responsible for their control. - Candidates make multiple reports during the campaign process and the EC does strict accounting for all this. It bans liquor sales and drafts banks to report any overt cash transactions. I don't know where you're getting your information from, when you were born, why you think the EC is sycophantic, or how that would even help - but the EC's role in the Indian elections is more like a safe maker trying to hoodwink the safe cracker - it will never be perfect, but given its many constitutionally guaranteed rights, it is agile enough to try and stay a few steps ahead of the curve. It is this very flexibility via which the ECI can even think about opening something like this up to a challenge.

srean 10y ago
> I don't know where you're getting your information from, Using eyes and ears and just being aware of my surroundings. Trivial counterpoint. Pickup a state, say West Bengal. Count the number of egregious incidents of violence and intimidation reported by competing political parties and the media, including live videos. What action has the EC taken and what has that changed. > - The EC assumes complete control over all civil services, including transferring people in response to independent assessment and complaints. ... and then does what ? You are being completely naïve in the open bedfellows relationship with IAS and politicians. There are exceptions, but rare.
- viksit 10y ago
  > Using eyes and ears and just being aware of my surroundings. Hmm, not quite the best sources of information then. Have you talked to anyone on the ground? Have you been an election observer or volunteered in any? Have you read the independent reviews of the EC? Talked in any detail to senior officers in any branch of the executive who may offer perspective? > Trivial counterpoint. Pickup a state, say West Bengal. Count the number of egregious incidents of violence and intimidation reported by competing political parties and the media, including live videos. What action has the EC taken and what has that changed. Hardly trivial. This is a law and order situation, and is dealt with appropriately. > ... and then does what ? You are being completely naïve in the open bedfellows relationship with IAS and politicians. There are exceptions, but rare. Naïveté is an easy thing to call upon in cases when information isn't easily accessible. Your statement, to me, makes it appear that not only could you have wrong or incomplete information shaped by public media - you're not willing to even consider that this may be the case!
  - srean 10y ago
    > Hmm, not quite the best sources of information then. Well, when I am standing in a queue to vote, I trust my eyes and ears more than what some report says about things that happened while I was standing there. > This is a law and order situation, and is dealt with appropriately. All that law and order violations were a means to an end and the end is tampering with the mandate and that is exactly where the EC has to step in. If all they can do is pass the buck and let the tampered mandate be counted as real, well it is not serving its one and only purpose. I am being charitable here in assuming goodfaith on EC's behalf. > Have you talked to anyone on the ground? yes many > Have you been an election observer or volunteered in any? volunteered yes, but not formally as an election observer and not as a part of any political outfit. > Have you read the independent reviews of the EC? Talked in any detail to senior officers in any branch of the executive who may offer perspective? some of it runs in the family so I do have some insiders perspective plus volunteerism does give me opportunities to interact with IAS officers in the field. And public media especially TV is crap, newspapers are somewhat better. There are one or two decent ones that I treat with some respect, rest are tabloid'ish garbage. But to the larger point, no, my opinions have very little to do with what goes on the popular media.

intended 10y ago

I was born much before yesterday, and I know how bad elections used to be, and how well they are now. An improvement wholly attributable to the EC.

srean 10y ago
That it has improved I will wholeheartedly agree. Much more is needed. I think one of the biggest contributions of EV has been to bring the costs of an election down (modulo normalization for inflation, population etc.). I dont have as much a respect for the EC as you seem to have. My disdain is targeted less towards "EC the institution", more towards the lack of a functional vertebra of the chief ECs that we have had (barring exceptions of course) However, we are still far far away from the ideal that every election in the country are free and fair. ...and finally thanks all for the discussion we had here.
- intended 10y ago
  This is India man. The achievement of the EC is so phenomenal, that it's respect will endure. And the issues with the EC, from what I remember, were manufactured. Optics to deal with a strong EC. And I've been through the dacoit, booth capturing end of Indian history, it's genuinely an accomplishment, its nuts that it even worked (works) at the time it began to work. Edit: similarly with the SC. Both of these were institutions which were beyond reproach, and I pretty clearly remember the times they both got dragged into the political limelight. The issues were largely to deal with their growing power over the political class. And this is something which you'll see had support on all sides of the political aisle.
  - srean 10y ago
    Funny that you and I keep discussing here when we are pretty sure everybody has left the building. An institution that I find absolutely remarkable is the Indian army (I am clubbing navy and air force in the same bucket). What I find striking and particularly especially so when compared to the defense forces of countries that were born under similar circumstances (no not just Pakistan) is that it has never exerted its political will. Sadly things are changing now with the army taking on clearly politically motivated stances. Govts are making politically charged appointments. The govt and the forces have started to play a tango and tat is not a good development.