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I've used the new MBP since its release. It's fine. I have no issues with the battery and came to like the keyboard and screen. The anti-MBP threads in HN is t

I've used the new MBP since its release. It's fine. I have no issues with the battery and came to like the keyboard and screen. The anti-MBP threads in HN is tiring. How many threads have we had on this? How many threads will we have on this filled with the same kind comments? The current top comment is the same as the top comments in the previous threads. I almost think at this point people post these links and post anti-MBP comments for easy karma. I'd rather see HN discuss something else at this point. If you don't like the new MBP don't buy it. It's fine for my programming needs. Maybe not yours, but let's discuss something else at this point on HN.

rusk 9y ago
It's not that the new MBP isn't "fine" - it's just that the gap with competitors has closed a lot. People asking me which laptop to buy used always be a very simple answer ("Buy a Macbook"). They were head and shoulders better than anything else. But it's down to mere inches now and the additional drawbacks which I won't go into here since as you rightly say they've been covered ad nauseum - are far more glaring now than they would have been a few years ago.
- timemachiner 9y ago
  That's Apples problem. Hopefully Apple gets the message that consumers want actual pro laptops. What I'm suggesting is let's discuss something more important on HN at this point.
  - rusk 9y ago
    Well with respect, you brought it up ...
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
  - Noseshine 9y ago
    Then why did you click to come to this discussion thread instead of ignoring it like you doubtlessly do for 90%+ of all topics that come up on HN? How about this: You don't upvote stories you don't like, and every person has (only) one vote to upvote what they do like to be seen and/or discussed. Incidentally, that's exactly how it already works... If you want to be the one with veto power there also is a way: You can create your own subreddit on reddit.
  - astrodust 9y ago
    Consumers don't want actual pro laptops. Hacker News wants actual pro laptops. The problem is more the "Pro" label, which has become dated and inappropriate, than anything else. We've come full circle to where like the SoundBlaster Pro, the "Pro" term has become so meaningless you ended up with things like the SoundBlaster Pro Gold.
    - rusk 9y ago
      Just want something that does the work with a minimum of fuss. For a while Apple was the best for that. Now there's plenty of other options. Thanks!
      - astrodust 9y ago
        Options aren't a bad thing, and an abundance of options can't be construed as Apple's fault here. Back when the first Mac Pro launched there wasn't a huge difference between their machine and the theoretical best machine. A quad core Xeon system was pretty good by the standards of the time, and if you needed more horsepower you didn't have many options. Now you can get a workstation with 36 physical cores if you can afford it. Apple cannot possibly hope to cater to that extreme end of the market, very few vendors even try. Dell only seems to offer dual 8-core workstations, HP offers dual 18-core...if you have $12K sitting around to buy one and the patience to configure the system properly. As the theoretical high end keeps getting higher and completely detaching from what everyday professionals need, the most demanding of that group will find more and more reasons to complain about Apple's line-up.
        true_religion 9y ago
        Whilst this is all true, the current thread and article are about the laptop Macbook Pro and not the Desktop Mac Pro. Laptop theoretical maximums haven't changed too much since 2006 when the Macbook Pro was first introduced. I know of many people who have 6 year old Macbook pro's and are still happy with the performance. To me the real issue is a death by a hundred cuts because: 1. The hardware is not improving at a steady clip; nor is it simply 'the best' in any category 2. OSX hasn't seen enough improvement to continue justifying the Mac premium 3. Other manufactures have caught up as the hardware market stabilised, and Windows is tugging on developer heart strings with its Linux subsystem layer. If Windows supports Linux in a reasonable performant way, I'd switch immediately. I'm waiting a year to see how the wind blows.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- jug 9y ago
  Yeah, PC laptops have much better touchpads than they used to and even often use better materials than plastic. That while still offering often far better connectivity and repairability and better prices. I'm sure Apple can remain competitive but it may take a more aggressive trajectory and more innovative features than watching this happen and introduce a touch bar for shortcut keys as response.
heavymark 9y ago
Amen.
davedx 9y ago
I agree, especially for development. If you want to do non-Microsoft development, your main choices are buy a Macbook or buy another laptop and put Linux on it. Personally I still prefer macOS to any other desktop OS out there by a very long way. It makes my life so much easier and more productive.
- rusk 9y ago
  It's in this light that WSL is particularly interesting ... it's like Microsoft asked a few people why they liked MacOS and they answered "Unix" ... so they've come up with an answer to that. It may be limited at the moment but it's not hard to see where it's going. Add to that it's an up-to-date version of Linux, vs Apple's ageing BSD fork ...
  - on_and_off 9y ago
    It is not just Unix. Although I really love that part of OsX, this is not the only reason why I prefer it to windows. Last time I tried windows 10, it took me 2 minutes before stumbling on an icon right out of Windows Vista (or at least it really looked disjointed with the rest of the OS). Install/Uninstall an app on Osx ? Use the same metaphor than for a file and put it in Applications or Trash. Contrast this with the clutter in windows menu .. OsX is really far from perfect and in fact I feel it regress each year but it is still better than the competition.
    - rusk 9y ago
      Yes it certainly is. But it used to be so much better. Snow Leopard was a high point. I can't really say I like much of what they've done in the last few releases. Does it strike anybody as strange that an operating system is getting worse over time rather than better?
      - epoch1970 9y ago
        > Does it strike anybody as strange that an operating system is getting worse over time rather than better? I somewhat expect it, as we've seen desktop OSes come to be influenced by mobile OSes, or worse, as we've seen desktop OSes modified to also act as mobile OSes. Trying to combine these two very different types of usage into one product, like we've seen with recent versions of Windows and open source desktop environments (like GNOME 3), results in the worst of both worlds. Even in the case of macOS, where there's at least some separation, the influence from the mobile side can still harm the desktop experience.
ycombinete 9y ago
At least it isn't another post about Uber's internal politics.
- malandrew 9y ago
  Yup. Some people will latch onto any reason to hate on a successful company that makes a superior product. At this point the only conclusion I can make is that that are a fair number of employees that work for the competitors of such successful companies that drive the conversation far enough along that they make the front page and get the momentum for active discussion. If it's not employees it's fanboys (and girls) of the competitors. I just discount opinions on such threads entirely and others do the same. That said, it's still entertaining to read.
mkoble11 9y ago
For over a decade, I've owned almost 10 Apple devices (tablets, laptops, phones). I've noticed a decline over the past 3+. Feels like the "move fast and break things" mantra has been adopted. This works for Facebook... but it doesn't for Apple. Shipping new features seems to take precedent over fixing bugs. Some of us just want the Apple quality back. It's really not too much to ask.
charlesism 9y ago
I don't know if user complaints about the TouchBar on the MBP will be enough for Apple to abandon it, but I can dream. If nobody had complained, Apple probably would have waited even longer (or even discontinued) the Mac Pro. > The anti-MBP threads in HN is tiring. > How many threads have we had on this? It's important to me that Apple keep Mac healthy, so I can't get enough.
- tinus_hn 9y ago
  You're overestimating the effects of your whining. It's definitely not the reason Apple brought out an update about the Mac Pro; you are never going to buy one anyway. The reason they had an update was that they couldn't deliver the upgrades they need. It also won't be a reason to abandon the Touch Bar because despite the vocal minority of whiners it is selling like hot cakes and more importantly it's a way Apple can differentiate its laptops from other manufacturers. Ultimately money talks and bullshit walks.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - charlesism 9y ago
    You might be right. I haven't been following Apple too closely.

rusk 9y ago

It's not that the new MBP isn't "fine" - it's just that the gap with competitors has closed a lot. People asking me which laptop to buy used always be a very simple answer ("Buy a Macbook"). They were head and shoulders better than anything else. But it's down to mere inches now and the additional drawbacks which I won't go into here since as you rightly say they've been covered ad nauseum - are far more glaring now than they would have been a few years ago.

timemachiner 9y ago
That's Apples problem. Hopefully Apple gets the message that consumers want actual pro laptops. What I'm suggesting is let's discuss something more important on HN at this point.
- rusk 9y ago
  Well with respect, you brought it up ...
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- Noseshine 9y ago
  Then why did you click to come to this discussion thread instead of ignoring it like you doubtlessly do for 90%+ of all topics that come up on HN? How about this: You don't upvote stories you don't like, and every person has (only) one vote to upvote what they do like to be seen and/or discussed. Incidentally, that's exactly how it already works... If you want to be the one with veto power there also is a way: You can create your own subreddit on reddit.
- astrodust 9y ago
  Consumers don't want actual pro laptops. Hacker News wants actual pro laptops. The problem is more the "Pro" label, which has become dated and inappropriate, than anything else. We've come full circle to where like the SoundBlaster Pro, the "Pro" term has become so meaningless you ended up with things like the SoundBlaster Pro Gold.
  - rusk 9y ago
    Just want something that does the work with a minimum of fuss. For a while Apple was the best for that. Now there's plenty of other options. Thanks!
    - astrodust 9y ago
      Options aren't a bad thing, and an abundance of options can't be construed as Apple's fault here. Back when the first Mac Pro launched there wasn't a huge difference between their machine and the theoretical best machine. A quad core Xeon system was pretty good by the standards of the time, and if you needed more horsepower you didn't have many options. Now you can get a workstation with 36 physical cores if you can afford it. Apple cannot possibly hope to cater to that extreme end of the market, very few vendors even try. Dell only seems to offer dual 8-core workstations, HP offers dual 18-core...if you have $12K sitting around to buy one and the patience to configure the system properly. As the theoretical high end keeps getting higher and completely detaching from what everyday professionals need, the most demanding of that group will find more and more reasons to complain about Apple's line-up.
      - true_religion 9y ago
        Whilst this is all true, the current thread and article are about the laptop Macbook Pro and not the Desktop Mac Pro. Laptop theoretical maximums haven't changed too much since 2006 when the Macbook Pro was first introduced. I know of many people who have 6 year old Macbook pro's and are still happy with the performance. To me the real issue is a death by a hundred cuts because: 1. The hardware is not improving at a steady clip; nor is it simply 'the best' in any category 2. OSX hasn't seen enough improvement to continue justifying the Mac premium 3. Other manufactures have caught up as the hardware market stabilised, and Windows is tugging on developer heart strings with its Linux subsystem layer. If Windows supports Linux in a reasonable performant way, I'd switch immediately. I'm waiting a year to see how the wind blows.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
jug 9y ago
Yeah, PC laptops have much better touchpads than they used to and even often use better materials than plastic. That while still offering often far better connectivity and repairability and better prices. I'm sure Apple can remain competitive but it may take a more aggressive trajectory and more innovative features than watching this happen and introduce a touch bar for shortcut keys as response.

heavymark 9y ago

Amen.

davedx 9y ago

I agree, especially for development. If you want to do non-Microsoft development, your main choices are buy a Macbook or buy another laptop and put Linux on it. Personally I still prefer macOS to any other desktop OS out there by a very long way. It makes my life so much easier and more productive.

rusk 9y ago
It's in this light that WSL is particularly interesting ... it's like Microsoft asked a few people why they liked MacOS and they answered "Unix" ... so they've come up with an answer to that. It may be limited at the moment but it's not hard to see where it's going. Add to that it's an up-to-date version of Linux, vs Apple's ageing BSD fork ...
- on_and_off 9y ago
  It is not just Unix. Although I really love that part of OsX, this is not the only reason why I prefer it to windows. Last time I tried windows 10, it took me 2 minutes before stumbling on an icon right out of Windows Vista (or at least it really looked disjointed with the rest of the OS). Install/Uninstall an app on Osx ? Use the same metaphor than for a file and put it in Applications or Trash. Contrast this with the clutter in windows menu .. OsX is really far from perfect and in fact I feel it regress each year but it is still better than the competition.
  - rusk 9y ago
    Yes it certainly is. But it used to be so much better. Snow Leopard was a high point. I can't really say I like much of what they've done in the last few releases. Does it strike anybody as strange that an operating system is getting worse over time rather than better?
    - epoch1970 9y ago
      > Does it strike anybody as strange that an operating system is getting worse over time rather than better? I somewhat expect it, as we've seen desktop OSes come to be influenced by mobile OSes, or worse, as we've seen desktop OSes modified to also act as mobile OSes. Trying to combine these two very different types of usage into one product, like we've seen with recent versions of Windows and open source desktop environments (like GNOME 3), results in the worst of both worlds. Even in the case of macOS, where there's at least some separation, the influence from the mobile side can still harm the desktop experience.

ycombinete 9y ago

At least it isn't another post about Uber's internal politics.

malandrew 9y ago
Yup. Some people will latch onto any reason to hate on a successful company that makes a superior product. At this point the only conclusion I can make is that that are a fair number of employees that work for the competitors of such successful companies that drive the conversation far enough along that they make the front page and get the momentum for active discussion. If it's not employees it's fanboys (and girls) of the competitors. I just discount opinions on such threads entirely and others do the same. That said, it's still entertaining to read.

mkoble11 9y ago

For over a decade, I've owned almost 10 Apple devices (tablets, laptops, phones). I've noticed a decline over the past 3+. Feels like the "move fast and break things" mantra has been adopted. This works for Facebook... but it doesn't for Apple. Shipping new features seems to take precedent over fixing bugs. Some of us just want the Apple quality back. It's really not too much to ask.

charlesism 9y ago

I don't know if user complaints about the TouchBar on the MBP will be enough for Apple to abandon it, but I can dream. If nobody had complained, Apple probably would have waited even longer (or even discontinued) the Mac Pro. > The anti-MBP threads in HN is tiring. > How many threads have we had on this? It's important to me that Apple keep Mac healthy, so I can't get enough.

tinus_hn 9y ago
You're overestimating the effects of your whining. It's definitely not the reason Apple brought out an update about the Mac Pro; you are never going to buy one anyway. The reason they had an update was that they couldn't deliver the upgrades they need. It also won't be a reason to abandon the Touch Bar because despite the vocal minority of whiners it is selling like hot cakes and more importantly it's a way Apple can differentiate its laptops from other manufacturers. Ultimately money talks and bullshit walks.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- charlesism 9y ago
  You might be right. I haven't been following Apple too closely.