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It convinces me Code Of Conduct are basically sticks that will not harm you when you are on the right side of them. Do communities needs sticks to be driven on

by julie1 9y ago

It convinces me Code Of Conduct are basically sticks that will not harm you when you are on the right side of them. Do communities needs sticks to be driven one sided way like cows? At this point it feels like they kind of defy their reason to be and are pretty misused.

andoon 9y ago
My experience says that codes of conduct are written with the express desire of keeping all open source communities left-leaning. I've talked to many people about the matter and some of them say that open source is supposed to be left-leaning, and that those are its principles. That ignores that right-leaning users should also be able to benefit from open source values (privacy, for example) and contribute code, and that not everybody who uses open source has to be a supporter of the open source principles (for example, I use an open source browser because it's the best, not because I like open source better than closed source).
- IGI-111 9y ago
  As usual, depends on the contents of the code. That kind of legalese is just tooling to organize discourse. You won't build an open minded community if its rules mandate righthink. Doesn't mean you can't try and protect people from the kind of stalking and abuse that has happened here. It's a shame that we have to have more than "be professional and don't be a dick" as community guidelines, but if we have to might as well do it correctly.
  - andoon 9y ago
    Someone who doesn't know that he has to "be professional and don't be a dick" is likely to disregard the code of conduct. And you don't need a code of conduct to kick someone out of a project because he's being unprofessional and/or a dick. Therefore codes of conduct are useless.
    - menacingly 9y ago
      I agree. It at least feels like it's more a way to showcase your beliefs and give a list of things that may be used to justify actions later, rather than something constructive.
    - vertex-four 9y ago
      > And you don't need a code of conduct to kick someone out of a project because he's being unprofessional and/or a dick. Unfortunately, my experience is that you actually do need to be able to point to something (a) precise and (b) that the community broadly agrees is a valid reason, in order to kick someone out without practically dissolving your community. A code of conduct is simply an agreement which states the community's beliefs on what are valid reasons to kick someone out.
- menacingly 9y ago
  There definitely is an "oh, we're doing this now" moment when any project or group reaches a size where a code of conduct is published. It's like wearing a cowboy hat to a meeting. It's not that there's anything wrong with the symbol itself, but it perhaps represents some tedious baggage
- Frondo 9y ago
  Well, what would a right-leaning code of conduct look like right now? "The Drupal project rejects the rights of gay people to marry each other"? "The Drupal project declares that men and women are better suited to different roles, and men will code and women will do graphic design"? What are you proposing for a not-left-leaning code of conduct, either neutral or right-leaning?
Cthulhu_ 9y ago
Code(s) of Conduct should be used only for that second word - conduct. How you behave inside a community or conference; your personal beliefs should be kept out of it. Just write code and stick to business, preferably under a pseudonym. This gets difficult when contributing to projects for which you need to sign a developer agreement for legal reasons though.
vertex-four 9y ago
The Code of Conduct didn't even come into this - the community leader asked Larry to leave the community when he figured that the board reviewing the supposed violation wasn't going to find that it actually was a violation. Or, in other words, this was someone completely ignoring the process because he was in a position of power.
- rszrama 9y ago
  That's not true by anyone's accounting of the events, including the aggrieved's.
  - vertex-four 9y ago
    > That information, Garfield says, made it to Drupal's Community Working Group (CWG), which concluded there was no code of conduct violation. Or, from his own writing on the subject: > Eventually that information made it to the Community Working Group (CWG), who concluded "there was no code of conduct violation present for [them] to take any action on".
    - rszrama 9y ago
      Larry also writes, > Dries, from what I understand, was first informed, without my knowledge, of the matter in early February, by the CWG. Curious that the CWG referred the matter to him as part of their documented process (i.e. when an issue exceeds the scope of their charter). You may not be inclined to believe a word they say, but at the very least Larry's timeline does not contradict this detail as provided by Megan / Dries: > The Community Working Group, which is part of Drupal’s governance structure, provided conflict resolution. When it became clear that some of the issues raised went beyond the scope of their charter, they determined that it was appropriate for the matter to be escalated to Dries. This is consistent with their existing policy and process. The FAQ section on this post provides the clearest timeline from the "other side" that I've seen: https://www.drupal.org/association/blog/working-through-the-concerns-of-our-community https://www.drupal.org/association/blog/working-through-the-... Regardless, multiple decisions were made before Dries and Larry talked, and it is your characterization of Dries as a meddler who is circumventing a process that I am declaring untrue by anyone's accounting of the facts. We don't live in a binary world, there are other options here besides Dries abused his power or Dries did everything right... for example, the process itself may be deficient and in need of reform. Before slinging mud, we should at least consider that possibility.
nebabyte 9y ago
Communities have always worked as a disorganized sum aggregate of people people wish to interact with.
mcphage 9y ago
He didn't break their CoC, and he wasn't kicked out for a CoC violation. As far as their CoC was concerned, he was fine.

by julie1 9y ago

andoon 9y ago

My experience says that codes of conduct are written with the express desire of keeping all open source communities left-leaning. I've talked to many people about the matter and some of them say that open source is supposed to be left-leaning, and that those are its principles. That ignores that right-leaning users should also be able to benefit from open source values (privacy, for example) and contribute code, and that not everybody who uses open source has to be a supporter of the open source principles (for example, I use an open source browser because it's the best, not because I like open source better than closed source).

IGI-111 9y ago
As usual, depends on the contents of the code. That kind of legalese is just tooling to organize discourse. You won't build an open minded community if its rules mandate righthink. Doesn't mean you can't try and protect people from the kind of stalking and abuse that has happened here. It's a shame that we have to have more than "be professional and don't be a dick" as community guidelines, but if we have to might as well do it correctly.
- andoon 9y ago
  Someone who doesn't know that he has to "be professional and don't be a dick" is likely to disregard the code of conduct. And you don't need a code of conduct to kick someone out of a project because he's being unprofessional and/or a dick. Therefore codes of conduct are useless.
  - menacingly 9y ago
    I agree. It at least feels like it's more a way to showcase your beliefs and give a list of things that may be used to justify actions later, rather than something constructive.
  - vertex-four 9y ago
    > And you don't need a code of conduct to kick someone out of a project because he's being unprofessional and/or a dick. Unfortunately, my experience is that you actually do need to be able to point to something (a) precise and (b) that the community broadly agrees is a valid reason, in order to kick someone out without practically dissolving your community. A code of conduct is simply an agreement which states the community's beliefs on what are valid reasons to kick someone out.
menacingly 9y ago
There definitely is an "oh, we're doing this now" moment when any project or group reaches a size where a code of conduct is published. It's like wearing a cowboy hat to a meeting. It's not that there's anything wrong with the symbol itself, but it perhaps represents some tedious baggage
Frondo 9y ago
Well, what would a right-leaning code of conduct look like right now? "The Drupal project rejects the rights of gay people to marry each other"? "The Drupal project declares that men and women are better suited to different roles, and men will code and women will do graphic design"? What are you proposing for a not-left-leaning code of conduct, either neutral or right-leaning?

Cthulhu_ 9y ago

Code(s) of Conduct should be used only for that second word - conduct. How you behave inside a community or conference; your personal beliefs should be kept out of it. Just write code and stick to business, preferably under a pseudonym. This gets difficult when contributing to projects for which you need to sign a developer agreement for legal reasons though.

vertex-four 9y ago

The Code of Conduct didn't even come into this - the community leader asked Larry to leave the community when he figured that the board reviewing the supposed violation wasn't going to find that it actually was a violation. Or, in other words, this was someone completely ignoring the process because he was in a position of power.

rszrama 9y ago
That's not true by anyone's accounting of the events, including the aggrieved's.
- vertex-four 9y ago
  > That information, Garfield says, made it to Drupal's Community Working Group (CWG), which concluded there was no code of conduct violation. Or, from his own writing on the subject: > Eventually that information made it to the Community Working Group (CWG), who concluded "there was no code of conduct violation present for [them] to take any action on".
  - rszrama 9y ago
    Larry also writes, > Dries, from what I understand, was first informed, without my knowledge, of the matter in early February, by the CWG. Curious that the CWG referred the matter to him as part of their documented process (i.e. when an issue exceeds the scope of their charter). You may not be inclined to believe a word they say, but at the very least Larry's timeline does not contradict this detail as provided by Megan / Dries: > The Community Working Group, which is part of Drupal’s governance structure, provided conflict resolution. When it became clear that some of the issues raised went beyond the scope of their charter, they determined that it was appropriate for the matter to be escalated to Dries. This is consistent with their existing policy and process. The FAQ section on this post provides the clearest timeline from the "other side" that I've seen: https://www.drupal.org/association/blog/working-through-the-concerns-of-our-community https://www.drupal.org/association/blog/working-through-the-... Regardless, multiple decisions were made before Dries and Larry talked, and it is your characterization of Dries as a meddler who is circumventing a process that I am declaring untrue by anyone's accounting of the facts. We don't live in a binary world, there are other options here besides Dries abused his power or Dries did everything right... for example, the process itself may be deficient and in need of reform. Before slinging mud, we should at least consider that possibility.

nebabyte 9y ago

Communities have always worked as a disorganized sum aggregate of people people wish to interact with.

mcphage 9y ago

He didn't break their CoC, and he wasn't kicked out for a CoC violation. As far as their CoC was concerned, he was fine.