9 ms·

I'm actually impressed, from the first few lines I was expecting another social justice fueled witch hunt, but instead we have the exact opposite here.

humanrebar 10y ago
Without getting into controversial labels, it's not clear to me who did what to whom and what the people are petitioning for. I seemed to me that (all allegedly) someone was outed as into BDSM and was somehow treated unfairly. I think that certainly falls into the domain of liberal sexual identity politics.
- speeder 10y ago
  Larry is Gorean Goreans are people that agree with philosophy of professor John Lange, that writes his philosophy in porn books with pen name John Norman What got Larry kicked out is that similarly to Abrahamic religions, Goreans believe there is an inherent hierarchy between men and women. Or at least it is what Dries (Drupal leader) wrote as explanation for the incident. So Larry is being punished literally for "wrong-think", having beliefs that are shared with billions of Abrahamic religion followers around the world. But Goreanism is not a religion, so probably doesn't count as religious discrimination. Also according to a blog lost by Larry, the "proof" used against him was a transcription of a discourse he made in a private wedding.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - noir_lord 10y ago
    > Goreanism is not a religion, so probably doesn't count as religious discrimination. I've often wondered what the difference between a Cult and a Religion is and my best answer seems to be "4 orders of magnitude". 1000 is a cult, 10,000,000 is a Religion. If it's a numbers game then everyone religion went through a stage where it was a cult (and indeed if you look at the history of religion lots of them where treat that way, Roman treatment of Christianity is a well documented one).
    - humanrebar 10y ago
      "Cult" is perjorative. It implies an unhealthy worldview and probably abusive leadership. People would infer that people in the "religions are just big cults" camp see those properties in all religions. If you care to espouse that viewpoint, you're on the right track.
    - Bartweiss 10y ago
      > 1000 is a cult, 10,000,000 is a Religion. I don't think this holds. There are about 1,000 practicing Samaritans left in the world. They practice a faith very similar to Judaism with a comparably long history, and I think hardly anyone would call them a cult. There are >50,000 self-described Scientologists worldwide. Many different people, including some government bodies, have referred to that organization as a cult. If we're talking about formal definition, there are detailed lists of what constitutes a cult - size isn't a factor, but segregation from non-members, active indoctrination, and public shaming are. If we're talking common usage, it appears to be respectability or 'kookiness'. Size is a factor, but age, similarity to other traditions, and behavior of members and leaders all count too.
      - ng12 10y ago
        I would call Samaritanism a cult. I think calling Scientology a cult is misappropriation which grew from a perceived relationship between small religions and esoteric beliefs.
  - humanrebar 10y ago
    Thanks for the info! Be careful about the Abrahamic religions thing, though. There's a lot of diversity of thought in that space, ranging from conservative Muslim ideas to ideas that are indistinguishable from any given form of feminism. And in that space, I would guess that "billions" is an overestimate unless you are speaking in the broadest sense, like "gender roles exist".
- falcolas 10y ago
  The problem is that Larry's brand of BDSM (Gor) is not the "right" form of BDSM, as supported by "liberal sexual identity politics". As such, he was outed, smeared, and asked to leave the Drupal community.
  - vertex-four 10y ago
    He was asked to leave the Drupal community by its community leader against the recommendations of its Code of Conduct board, to a large amount of backlash by pretty much everybody, including many of those evil social justice warriors. Gor is, for the most part, a personal way of going about one's private relationships. Unlike e.g. red pill doctrine, Goreans still respect consent at its core. Men and women both enter into Gorean relationships with full knowledge of what they entail, and generally speaking, the ability to leave if they find it necessary. Goreans don't "promote" their relationship model as a way that they think everyone should view the world at all times, and put down people who don't think that way. In short - there's really nothing there for SJW types to be upset about. This is some guy who decided to discriminate against someone for how they go about their relationships and sexuality - precisely the sort of behaviour we're almost always against.
    - thehardsphere 10y ago
      > He was asked to leave the Drupal community by its community leader against the recommendations of its Code of Conduct board, to a large amount of backlash by pretty much everybody, including many of those evil social justice warriors. Umm, no. The "Code of Conduct board" said he didn't violate the Code of Conduct, but they escalated the issue to Dries because _something_ came up that they felt needed his intervention. We don't know exactly what _something_ is. Larry has decided to spin the narrative that it has to do with his Gorean belief and that this is "kink shaming", comparing himself to persecuted gay people. The counter-narrative has been "we're not going to say for confidentiality and liability reasons, but it has nothing to do with anything Larry wrote about."
      - vertex-four 10y ago
vertex-four 10y ago
For the record, a large chunk of the social justice community are kinky (and, separately, a large chunk of the kink community agrees broadly with modern feminist views). Nobody I've spoken to within my subset of the social justice community wants somebody to be removed from the Drupal community based on how they go about their personal relationships and sexuality.
- nebabyte 10y ago
  > For the record, a large chunk of the social justice community are ki Gonna stop you right there - there exists no "record" this needs to be on. Or rather, were there a need for it to be "on a record", such a community would already be failing their supposed 'without the community needing to know or care' ideal.
  - vertex-four 10y ago
    I'm just saying, that it'd be entirely illogical for the social justice community at large to be against the practice of kink, given that many of its members practice kink in a wide variety of ways. There's no reason to assume that the SJW community at large will be against the practice of any consensual sexuality, which many people in this thread are doing.
    - nebabyte 10y ago
      And I'm just saying, the ideal of "don't know, don't care" can't purport to be upheld when analyses like these enter into "people X and people Y do Z to what degree". You can't have it both ways.
      - vertex-four 10y ago
        I never said "don't know, don't care" - though I certainly don't care, even if I do know. I was only attacking the idea that it's a bunch of nebulous "SJWs" kicking Larry out of the community, and pointing out that this is a nonsensical idea from the very start. There is no better way to do that given that many people believe SJWs are literally the devil than to say "we do literally this, why the fuck would we attack someone for it?"

humanrebar 10y ago

Without getting into controversial labels, it's not clear to me who did what to whom and what the people are petitioning for. I seemed to me that (all allegedly) someone was outed as into BDSM and was somehow treated unfairly. I think that certainly falls into the domain of liberal sexual identity politics.

speeder 10y ago
Larry is Gorean Goreans are people that agree with philosophy of professor John Lange, that writes his philosophy in porn books with pen name John Norman What got Larry kicked out is that similarly to Abrahamic religions, Goreans believe there is an inherent hierarchy between men and women. Or at least it is what Dries (Drupal leader) wrote as explanation for the incident. So Larry is being punished literally for "wrong-think", having beliefs that are shared with billions of Abrahamic religion followers around the world. But Goreanism is not a religion, so probably doesn't count as religious discrimination. Also according to a blog lost by Larry, the "proof" used against him was a transcription of a discourse he made in a private wedding.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- noir_lord 10y ago
  > Goreanism is not a religion, so probably doesn't count as religious discrimination. I've often wondered what the difference between a Cult and a Religion is and my best answer seems to be "4 orders of magnitude". 1000 is a cult, 10,000,000 is a Religion. If it's a numbers game then everyone religion went through a stage where it was a cult (and indeed if you look at the history of religion lots of them where treat that way, Roman treatment of Christianity is a well documented one).
  - humanrebar 10y ago
    "Cult" is perjorative. It implies an unhealthy worldview and probably abusive leadership. People would infer that people in the "religions are just big cults" camp see those properties in all religions. If you care to espouse that viewpoint, you're on the right track.
  - Bartweiss 10y ago
    > 1000 is a cult, 10,000,000 is a Religion. I don't think this holds. There are about 1,000 practicing Samaritans left in the world. They practice a faith very similar to Judaism with a comparably long history, and I think hardly anyone would call them a cult. There are >50,000 self-described Scientologists worldwide. Many different people, including some government bodies, have referred to that organization as a cult. If we're talking about formal definition, there are detailed lists of what constitutes a cult - size isn't a factor, but segregation from non-members, active indoctrination, and public shaming are. If we're talking common usage, it appears to be respectability or 'kookiness'. Size is a factor, but age, similarity to other traditions, and behavior of members and leaders all count too.
    - ng12 10y ago
      I would call Samaritanism a cult. I think calling Scientology a cult is misappropriation which grew from a perceived relationship between small religions and esoteric beliefs.
- humanrebar 10y ago
  Thanks for the info! Be careful about the Abrahamic religions thing, though. There's a lot of diversity of thought in that space, ranging from conservative Muslim ideas to ideas that are indistinguishable from any given form of feminism. And in that space, I would guess that "billions" is an overestimate unless you are speaking in the broadest sense, like "gender roles exist".
falcolas 10y ago
The problem is that Larry's brand of BDSM (Gor) is not the "right" form of BDSM, as supported by "liberal sexual identity politics". As such, he was outed, smeared, and asked to leave the Drupal community.
- vertex-four 10y ago
  He was asked to leave the Drupal community by its community leader against the recommendations of its Code of Conduct board, to a large amount of backlash by pretty much everybody, including many of those evil social justice warriors. Gor is, for the most part, a personal way of going about one's private relationships. Unlike e.g. red pill doctrine, Goreans still respect consent at its core. Men and women both enter into Gorean relationships with full knowledge of what they entail, and generally speaking, the ability to leave if they find it necessary. Goreans don't "promote" their relationship model as a way that they think everyone should view the world at all times, and put down people who don't think that way. In short - there's really nothing there for SJW types to be upset about. This is some guy who decided to discriminate against someone for how they go about their relationships and sexuality - precisely the sort of behaviour we're almost always against.
  - thehardsphere 10y ago
    > He was asked to leave the Drupal community by its community leader against the recommendations of its Code of Conduct board, to a large amount of backlash by pretty much everybody, including many of those evil social justice warriors. Umm, no. The "Code of Conduct board" said he didn't violate the Code of Conduct, but they escalated the issue to Dries because _something_ came up that they felt needed his intervention. We don't know exactly what _something_ is. Larry has decided to spin the narrative that it has to do with his Gorean belief and that this is "kink shaming", comparing himself to persecuted gay people. The counter-narrative has been "we're not going to say for confidentiality and liability reasons, but it has nothing to do with anything Larry wrote about."
    - vertex-four 10y ago

vertex-four 10y ago

For the record, a large chunk of the social justice community are kinky (and, separately, a large chunk of the kink community agrees broadly with modern feminist views). Nobody I've spoken to within my subset of the social justice community wants somebody to be removed from the Drupal community based on how they go about their personal relationships and sexuality.

nebabyte 10y ago
> For the record, a large chunk of the social justice community are ki Gonna stop you right there - there exists no "record" this needs to be on. Or rather, were there a need for it to be "on a record", such a community would already be failing their supposed 'without the community needing to know or care' ideal.
- vertex-four 10y ago
  I'm just saying, that it'd be entirely illogical for the social justice community at large to be against the practice of kink, given that many of its members practice kink in a wide variety of ways. There's no reason to assume that the SJW community at large will be against the practice of any consensual sexuality, which many people in this thread are doing.
  - nebabyte 10y ago
    And I'm just saying, the ideal of "don't know, don't care" can't purport to be upheld when analyses like these enter into "people X and people Y do Z to what degree". You can't have it both ways.
    - vertex-four 10y ago
      I never said "don't know, don't care" - though I certainly don't care, even if I do know. I was only attacking the idea that it's a bunch of nebulous "SJWs" kicking Larry out of the community, and pointing out that this is a nonsensical idea from the very start. There is no better way to do that given that many people believe SJWs are literally the devil than to say "we do literally this, why the fuck would we attack someone for it?"