6 ms·

> The fact that SWATing is a thing shows just how broken the current model is Hard to think of a better model though; you never know what call is going to be

> The fact that SWATing is a thing shows just how broken the current model is Hard to think of a better model though; you never know what call is going to be real. Additionally getting local police involved does make a lot of sense, as they should have invaluable knowledge of the area and the people.

panic 10y ago
Maybe we could try one of the many models used successfully in other countries?
- orbat 10y ago
  This sort of suggestion is usually countered by pointing out how big/unique/different the US is, hence things that work everywhere else in the world just won't cut it. Which I understand to an extent, but often it sounds more like a cop-out than an actual analysis of the situation.
- lj3 10y ago
  Which one? And before you answer, you must choose a model from a country with similar demographics to the US. Saying Japan's or Sweden's model works for them isn't going to do us much good.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
kbart 10y ago
"Hard to think of a better model though" No, it's not. USA is probably the only western country with such militarized, trigger happy police force and still does worse[0] than any EU country and most Asia countries in controlling crime. 0. https://www.numbeo.com/crime/gmaps_rankings_country.jsp https://www.numbeo.com/crime/gmaps_rankings_country.jsp
- lj3 10y ago
  You're comparing apples and oranges. EU and Asian countries are ethnically homogeneous. You need to compare America to other melting pots, like Brazil and Argentina.
  - Veratyr 10y ago
    I don't think this is the differentiating factor. The EU is very diverse, I think the difference is that Europe has had a far longer time for its inhabitants to resolve or overcome their differences. It was only a little under 150 years ago that people with dark skin in America were still considered property and it was at around the same time that Asian immigrants first came to the country. In Europe, the English and French were on-and-off fighting each other for 600 years. Plus, the US is extremely individualistic, while European countries tend to be more communal. I think this also contributes to the increased tension between factions in the US. Finally, the US has far higher gun ownership, so law enforcement in the US has to deal with gun violence while Europe does not.
    - lj3 10y ago
      > I don't think this is the differentiating factor. Good for you. Multiple studies and the FBI's own crime statistics prove you wrong. > Plus, the US is extremely individualistic, while European countries tend to be more communal. Irrelevant. Not all European countries are communal and some of the highest crime rate countries in the world are communal. > Finally, the US has far higher gun ownership, so law enforcement in the US has to deal with gun violence while Europe does not. Czech republic has just as high a gun ownership rate as the US, but much lower crime. The reason? Homogeneous population. Do you want to make any other arguments that have been debunked to hell? I haven't heard you use the word 'racism' yet.
      - Veratyr 10y ago
        > Multiple studies and the FBI's own crime statistics prove you wrong. Cite them, please. Particularly, cite the ones showing that: - Europe is not diverse. - Diversity causes increased crime (and is not just correlated, in which case other factors like poverty, which seem to be correlated with diversity in the US, could be a factor). To provide some evidence of my own, here's some evidence that violent crime in the USA is heavily correlated with poverty: https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=5137 https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=5137 And here's some more evidence showing that poverty is associated with being a minority ethnicity: https://www.census.gov/prod/2013pubs/acsbr11-17.pdf https://www.census.gov/prod/2013pubs/acsbr11-17.pdf So it seems likely that crime is correlated with diversity but it also seems (to me) that diversity isn't the cause, poverty is (you can see in the first link that whites in poverty have similar crime rates to blacks in poverty). > Irrelevant. Not all European countries are communal and some of the highest crime rate countries in the world are communal. I never said it was a sole factor, I believe it's a contributing factor. Those countries with high amounts of violence are also influenced by other factors, like poverty and lack of stable government. Those communal countries also tend to be more "socialist", which leads to reduced poverty, reduced income inequality and hence, I believe, reduced crime. To provide some evidence, it seems that people on the lowest end of the income spectrum in most of Europe have more income than their counterparts in the USA: http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2015/01/05/america_s_poor_vs_the_rest_of_the_world.html http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2015/01/05/america_s_poo... > Czech republic has just as high a gun ownership rate as the US, but much lower crime. The reason? Homogeneous population. No it doesn't. Wikipedia puts the number of license holders (and note that a license is required) at 300k: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_Czech_Republic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_Czech_Republic The population of the Czech Republic is 10m, that puts gun ownership at ~3%. This puts gun ownership in the US at ~22%, over 6x higher: http://www.guns.com/2016/09/20/how-many-guns-owned-by-how-many-americans/ http://www.guns.com/2016/09/20/how-many-guns-owned-by-how-ma... Further, you provide no source to support your assertion that Czech crime is lower because of a culturally homogenous population. > Do you want to make any other arguments that have been debunked to hell? Nothing's been debunked so far, I've simply made some suggestions and you've thrown "you're wrong" at me without any evidence to support your assertion. I've now expanded my argument, feel free to show that my evidence or the logic based upon it is flawed.
deadwanderer 10y ago
Should, but apparently don't, given the number of false alarms they respond to blindly and violently...

panic 10y ago

Maybe we could try one of the many models used successfully in other countries?

orbat 10y ago
This sort of suggestion is usually countered by pointing out how big/unique/different the US is, hence things that work everywhere else in the world just won't cut it. Which I understand to an extent, but often it sounds more like a cop-out than an actual analysis of the situation.
lj3 10y ago
Which one? And before you answer, you must choose a model from a country with similar demographics to the US. Saying Japan's or Sweden's model works for them isn't going to do us much good.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

kbart 10y ago

"Hard to think of a better model though" No, it's not. USA is probably the only western country with such militarized, trigger happy police force and still does worse[0] than any EU country and most Asia countries in controlling crime. 0. https://www.numbeo.com/crime/gmaps_rankings_country.jsp https://www.numbeo.com/crime/gmaps_rankings_country.jsp

lj3 10y ago
You're comparing apples and oranges. EU and Asian countries are ethnically homogeneous. You need to compare America to other melting pots, like Brazil and Argentina.
- Veratyr 10y ago
  I don't think this is the differentiating factor. The EU is very diverse, I think the difference is that Europe has had a far longer time for its inhabitants to resolve or overcome their differences. It was only a little under 150 years ago that people with dark skin in America were still considered property and it was at around the same time that Asian immigrants first came to the country. In Europe, the English and French were on-and-off fighting each other for 600 years. Plus, the US is extremely individualistic, while European countries tend to be more communal. I think this also contributes to the increased tension between factions in the US. Finally, the US has far higher gun ownership, so law enforcement in the US has to deal with gun violence while Europe does not.
  - lj3 10y ago
    > I don't think this is the differentiating factor. Good for you. Multiple studies and the FBI's own crime statistics prove you wrong. > Plus, the US is extremely individualistic, while European countries tend to be more communal. Irrelevant. Not all European countries are communal and some of the highest crime rate countries in the world are communal. > Finally, the US has far higher gun ownership, so law enforcement in the US has to deal with gun violence while Europe does not. Czech republic has just as high a gun ownership rate as the US, but much lower crime. The reason? Homogeneous population. Do you want to make any other arguments that have been debunked to hell? I haven't heard you use the word 'racism' yet.
    - Veratyr 10y ago
      > Multiple studies and the FBI's own crime statistics prove you wrong. Cite them, please. Particularly, cite the ones showing that: - Europe is not diverse. - Diversity causes increased crime (and is not just correlated, in which case other factors like poverty, which seem to be correlated with diversity in the US, could be a factor). To provide some evidence of my own, here's some evidence that violent crime in the USA is heavily correlated with poverty: https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=5137 https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=5137 And here's some more evidence showing that poverty is associated with being a minority ethnicity: https://www.census.gov/prod/2013pubs/acsbr11-17.pdf https://www.census.gov/prod/2013pubs/acsbr11-17.pdf So it seems likely that crime is correlated with diversity but it also seems (to me) that diversity isn't the cause, poverty is (you can see in the first link that whites in poverty have similar crime rates to blacks in poverty). > Irrelevant. Not all European countries are communal and some of the highest crime rate countries in the world are communal. I never said it was a sole factor, I believe it's a contributing factor. Those countries with high amounts of violence are also influenced by other factors, like poverty and lack of stable government. Those communal countries also tend to be more "socialist", which leads to reduced poverty, reduced income inequality and hence, I believe, reduced crime. To provide some evidence, it seems that people on the lowest end of the income spectrum in most of Europe have more income than their counterparts in the USA: http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2015/01/05/america_s_poor_vs_the_rest_of_the_world.html http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2015/01/05/america_s_poo... > Czech republic has just as high a gun ownership rate as the US, but much lower crime. The reason? Homogeneous population. No it doesn't. Wikipedia puts the number of license holders (and note that a license is required) at 300k: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_Czech_Republic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_Czech_Republic The population of the Czech Republic is 10m, that puts gun ownership at ~3%. This puts gun ownership in the US at ~22%, over 6x higher: http://www.guns.com/2016/09/20/how-many-guns-owned-by-how-many-americans/ http://www.guns.com/2016/09/20/how-many-guns-owned-by-how-ma... Further, you provide no source to support your assertion that Czech crime is lower because of a culturally homogenous population. > Do you want to make any other arguments that have been debunked to hell? Nothing's been debunked so far, I've simply made some suggestions and you've thrown "you're wrong" at me without any evidence to support your assertion. I've now expanded my argument, feel free to show that my evidence or the logic based upon it is flawed.

deadwanderer 10y ago

Should, but apparently don't, given the number of false alarms they respond to blindly and violently...