9 ms·

Deutsche Post expands StreetScooter production

169 points by wibr 9y ago

Asdfbla 9y ago
It's very telling and somewhat disappointing that the Deutsche Post (not a traditional car maker) can get a fleet of electric cars up and running while traditional German automotive industry is still delaying as long as possible, showing off futuristic (and ugly) design studies instead of putting electric cars on the road.
- kuschku 9y ago
  All the German carmakers have the tech to produce them, that’s not the problem. But there’s no demand for an electric car that costs 5 times as much as an equivalent gasoline car (VW up! is 7'000€, e-up! is 35'000€)
  - adrianN 9y ago
    Apparently the Post has a sufficiently big demand, as do other European delivery agencies.
- usrusr 9y ago
  But it's made by the German automotive industry, just not designed and assembled by any of the existing front-end brands. The underlying component supplier network (and workforce skill pool) is the same. Tapping into that network might be difficult if you are some nameless, shaky startup, but if you are DHL they will be very willing to talk to you.
  - germanier 9y ago
    Understanding this is key to getting the German automative industry (or even the whole German economy). Your shiny new car model needs cylindrical fasteners (just as all do)? There is a company with 350 employees that does only that and can deliver just on time. Same with any other little component in a car.
    - 205guy 9y ago
      I came to make a similar comment. Look at what Tesla had to do to manufacture in California (partner with old factory owner, get tons of federal loans), and they were lucky there was an old car factory in the Bay Area, it would never be sited there nowadays due to real-estate value. Maybe it would've been easier for them in Michigan, not sure. Or look at the Nissan Leaf, US models built in Tennesssee I believe, but had to be done by an established brand who retooled one of their factories. By comparison, Germany seems to be the Shenzen of tooling and manufacture, enabling a start-up to build a niche electric vehicle such as this.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- jpm_sd 9y ago
  Similarly, can you imagine the USPS ever doing something like this?
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - Retric 9y ago
    The USPS wants one vehicle so it needs a much longer range. The Grumman LLV was specifically designed for the United States Postal Service with Grumman winning the contract for production... Approximately 140,000 LLVs are in the USPS delivery fleet.[6][7] A number were also sold to Canada, Mexico, and several other countries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_LLV https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_LLV On September 22, 2016, the United States Postal Service awarded the NGDV Prototype Contract to six selected suppliers: AM General, Karsan, Mahindra, Oshkosh, Utilimaster, and VT Hackney. Half of the prototypes will feature hybrid and new technologies, including alternative fuel capabilities. The prototypes will represent a variety of vehicle sizes and drive configurations, in addition to advanced powertrains and a range of hybrid technologies.[16]
    - hackermailman 9y ago
      The old LLVs were finally retired in Canada a few years ago due to spontaneously catching fire[1] but lasted 28yrs of heavy service. [1]http://postalnews.com/blog/category/llv-fires/ http://postalnews.com/blog/category/llv-fires/
    - photojosh 9y ago
      That's the kind of thinking that leads to the JSF/F-35. :)
      - Retric 9y ago
        Sometimes, but economies of scale are moreover noticeable when you make 100,000+ of something than 200+. I would say go electric, but with N optional and easily replaceable battery packs. So, routs that need 50 mile range get that and you can scale to 100, 150 etc, or add an extra pack when range starts to drop etc. This also lets you keep a motor pool of being repaired without needing an extra of each model.
- rhodin 9y ago
  StreetScooter started as a research project at the RWTH Aachen University, spun out as a startup, and was later acquired by Deutsche Post[1]. Hoping Germany can produce more such startups! [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StreetScooter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StreetScooter
awjr 9y ago
This is rather brilliant, developing a series of electric vehicle specifically for their operations, only to find that these answer the problems for many delivery services around europe. Vehicle website: http://www.streetscooter.eu/ http://www.streetscooter.eu/
- mxfh 9y ago
  Don't forget to checkout their behemoth pedelecs at 57 and 86 kg. http://www.streetscooter.eu/modelle/work-s http://www.streetscooter.eu/modelle/work-s http://www.streetscooter.eu/modelle/work-m http://www.streetscooter.eu/modelle/work-m
  - awjr 9y ago
    No idea why they are single speed. Have these people not heard of hills ;) A local company uses eBullit, but can only get about 4 hours out of the 500w battery due to hills. I could see an advantage in offering a 1000w light-moped version however these would be illegal on cycle paths.
    - foepys 9y ago
      > No idea why they are single speed. Have these people not heard of hills ;) I think the idea here is that the electric motor will help in those cases.
    - buro9 9y ago
      It's a pedal assist variety of electric motor that provides up to 45km/h on the flat and 32km/h on mountains depending on the motor chosen. http://www.go-swissdrive.com/en/the-go-swissdrive-system/motor/ http://www.go-swissdrive.com/en/the-go-swissdrive-system/mot... Singlespeed, I assume you just got this from the drivetrain type which doesn't really relate to hub-geared electric motors.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - mxfh 9y ago
Quanttek 9y ago
In my hometown they (i.e. the small "Work" carrier) are carrying out mail for about a year now. Super small, silent, pretty good interior, though the "Work" only has a range of ~80km. That#s perfectly fine for urban areas but they will probably find little use in rural areas. Some more background: A few years ago, the Post wanted to slowly transition to electric cars but couldn't find a car manufacturer (IIRC they asked Daimler and BMW) to produce an electric carrier even close to their specification so they basically said "fuck it" and founded their own little startup-like manufacturer
- awjr 9y ago
  So 'basic' electric vehicles have lower manufacturing hurdles to overcome?
  - frik 9y ago
    Which hurdles? Electric vehicles are a solved problem. It's just the battery and the electronic to charge the battery were innovation is really needed to extend the reach. In NYC around 1910 all Cabs were full electric, the first official car of an Us president was an electric one. The post services in various countries used full electric cars up to the 1970s. Overall an electric vehicle has less parts and is simpler to design and produce. In China you see already many electric cars and even big Chinese built all electric SUVs. It seems like certain manufacturer of the old age will face reality very soon. There will be a disruption of the market, and they waited for decades and now they will loose a lot of market share.
    - kwhitefoot 9y ago
      And milk floats in the UK: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milk_float https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milk_float, https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ethical-hipsters-are-driving-return-of-electric-milk-floats-6cdv5tdjw https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ethical-hipsters-are-driv....
  - HenryBemis 9y ago
    "Hurdles" is too ambiguous and vague. I think the issue was cost and not application of existing technologies. If specs do not require for a 800km autonomy, max speed of 170km/h and no leather seats, no auto-pilot, no high-end stereo system, and so on, then yes ("money" or lack of IT is a big "hurdle".. no?)
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
Tepix 9y ago
It's disappointing that the Sinclair X-1 (http://newatlas.com/sinclair-x1-pedal-electric/16838/ http://newatlas.com/sinclair-x1-pedal-electric/16838/) never made it to the market. I think there's a niche for a mass produced pedelec with a shell.
- m0nty 9y ago
  You can get fully-functional velomobiles which are basically "pedelec with a shell" but far from being mass-produced (I'm guessing you probably know this anyway). I'd love to have one but they are expensive and (in the UK) I'm sure some drivers would be very bullying or dangerous around them (it's bad enough sometimes on a bike). In the Netherlands, a different story: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5x1Zw5kovA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5x1Zw5kovA
- awjr 9y ago
  The problem is that these types of wide pedelec do not cope with the way many councils provide cycle infrastructure requiring users to mix with cars. At which point being in a wider pedelec stops you filtering traffic and you just become 'stuck' in traffic. Another issue is parking, with many bicycles, you can find a lampost/sheffield stand and just lock them to it, this seems to need a parking space.
pjc50 9y ago
Bit of electric delivery vehicle history that seems to be UK-specific: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milk_float https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milk_float They were gradually phased out from the 90s onwards due to the decline in demand for doorstep delivery. Maybe we'll see a comeback?
- bjackman 9y ago
  We had these where I grew up, all the way to the 2010s. They were slow and had limited range but that isn't a problem for milk delivery which is on suburban roads in the middle of the night. However they were surprisingly noisy - I was a mild insomniac and always knew when 2.30AM came round because I could hear the milk float buzzing past outside.
Gravityloss 9y ago
I think there's been a lot of projects like this around the world? In Finland there have been the Elcat electric delivery vans for the local post office and others since 1990. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elcat_Electric_Vehicles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elcat_Electric_Vehicles You see them around every now and then in private use, but of course the technology is outdated by now.
e2e4 9y ago
in Japan a delivery with a bicycle (for the last miles) is quite popular and works quite well: http://mamabicycle.blogspot.jp/2011/05/kuroneko-eco-delivery-kyoto-japan.html http://mamabicycle.blogspot.jp/2011/05/kuroneko-eco-delivery...

169 points by wibr 9y ago

It's very telling and somewhat disappointing that the Deutsche Post (not a traditional car maker) can get a fleet of electric cars up and running while traditional German automotive industry is still delaying as long as possible, showing off futuristic (and ugly) design studies instead of putting electric cars on the road.

kuschku 9y ago
All the German carmakers have the tech to produce them, that’s not the problem. But there’s no demand for an electric car that costs 5 times as much as an equivalent gasoline car (VW up! is 7'000€, e-up! is 35'000€)
- adrianN 9y ago
  Apparently the Post has a sufficiently big demand, as do other European delivery agencies.
usrusr 9y ago
But it's made by the German automotive industry, just not designed and assembled by any of the existing front-end brands. The underlying component supplier network (and workforce skill pool) is the same. Tapping into that network might be difficult if you are some nameless, shaky startup, but if you are DHL they will be very willing to talk to you.
- germanier 9y ago
  Understanding this is key to getting the German automative industry (or even the whole German economy). Your shiny new car model needs cylindrical fasteners (just as all do)? There is a company with 350 employees that does only that and can deliver just on time. Same with any other little component in a car.
  - 205guy 9y ago
    I came to make a similar comment. Look at what Tesla had to do to manufacture in California (partner with old factory owner, get tons of federal loans), and they were lucky there was an old car factory in the Bay Area, it would never be sited there nowadays due to real-estate value. Maybe it would've been easier for them in Michigan, not sure. Or look at the Nissan Leaf, US models built in Tennesssee I believe, but had to be done by an established brand who retooled one of their factories. By comparison, Germany seems to be the Shenzen of tooling and manufacture, enabling a start-up to build a niche electric vehicle such as this.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
jpm_sd 9y ago
Similarly, can you imagine the USPS ever doing something like this?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- Retric 9y ago
  The USPS wants one vehicle so it needs a much longer range. The Grumman LLV was specifically designed for the United States Postal Service with Grumman winning the contract for production... Approximately 140,000 LLVs are in the USPS delivery fleet.[6][7] A number were also sold to Canada, Mexico, and several other countries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_LLV https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_LLV On September 22, 2016, the United States Postal Service awarded the NGDV Prototype Contract to six selected suppliers: AM General, Karsan, Mahindra, Oshkosh, Utilimaster, and VT Hackney. Half of the prototypes will feature hybrid and new technologies, including alternative fuel capabilities. The prototypes will represent a variety of vehicle sizes and drive configurations, in addition to advanced powertrains and a range of hybrid technologies.[16]
  - hackermailman 9y ago
    The old LLVs were finally retired in Canada a few years ago due to spontaneously catching fire[1] but lasted 28yrs of heavy service. [1]http://postalnews.com/blog/category/llv-fires/ http://postalnews.com/blog/category/llv-fires/
  - photojosh 9y ago
    That's the kind of thinking that leads to the JSF/F-35. :)
    - Retric 9y ago
      Sometimes, but economies of scale are moreover noticeable when you make 100,000+ of something than 200+. I would say go electric, but with N optional and easily replaceable battery packs. So, routs that need 50 mile range get that and you can scale to 100, 150 etc, or add an extra pack when range starts to drop etc. This also lets you keep a motor pool of being repaired without needing an extra of each model.
rhodin 9y ago
StreetScooter started as a research project at the RWTH Aachen University, spun out as a startup, and was later acquired by Deutsche Post[1]. Hoping Germany can produce more such startups! [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StreetScooter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StreetScooter

awjr 9y ago

This is rather brilliant, developing a series of electric vehicle specifically for their operations, only to find that these answer the problems for many delivery services around europe. Vehicle website: http://www.streetscooter.eu/ http://www.streetscooter.eu/

mxfh 9y ago
Don't forget to checkout their behemoth pedelecs at 57 and 86 kg. http://www.streetscooter.eu/modelle/work-s http://www.streetscooter.eu/modelle/work-s http://www.streetscooter.eu/modelle/work-m http://www.streetscooter.eu/modelle/work-m
- awjr 9y ago
  No idea why they are single speed. Have these people not heard of hills ;) A local company uses eBullit, but can only get about 4 hours out of the 500w battery due to hills. I could see an advantage in offering a 1000w light-moped version however these would be illegal on cycle paths.
  - foepys 9y ago
    > No idea why they are single speed. Have these people not heard of hills ;) I think the idea here is that the electric motor will help in those cases.
  - buro9 9y ago
    It's a pedal assist variety of electric motor that provides up to 45km/h on the flat and 32km/h on mountains depending on the motor chosen. http://www.go-swissdrive.com/en/the-go-swissdrive-system/motor/ http://www.go-swissdrive.com/en/the-go-swissdrive-system/mot... Singlespeed, I assume you just got this from the drivetrain type which doesn't really relate to hub-geared electric motors.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - mxfh 9y ago

Quanttek 9y ago

In my hometown they (i.e. the small "Work" carrier) are carrying out mail for about a year now. Super small, silent, pretty good interior, though the "Work" only has a range of ~80km. That#s perfectly fine for urban areas but they will probably find little use in rural areas. Some more background: A few years ago, the Post wanted to slowly transition to electric cars but couldn't find a car manufacturer (IIRC they asked Daimler and BMW) to produce an electric carrier even close to their specification so they basically said "fuck it" and founded their own little startup-like manufacturer

awjr 9y ago
So 'basic' electric vehicles have lower manufacturing hurdles to overcome?
- frik 9y ago
  Which hurdles? Electric vehicles are a solved problem. It's just the battery and the electronic to charge the battery were innovation is really needed to extend the reach. In NYC around 1910 all Cabs were full electric, the first official car of an Us president was an electric one. The post services in various countries used full electric cars up to the 1970s. Overall an electric vehicle has less parts and is simpler to design and produce. In China you see already many electric cars and even big Chinese built all electric SUVs. It seems like certain manufacturer of the old age will face reality very soon. There will be a disruption of the market, and they waited for decades and now they will loose a lot of market share.
  - kwhitefoot 9y ago
    And milk floats in the UK: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milk_float https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milk_float, https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ethical-hipsters-are-driving-return-of-electric-milk-floats-6cdv5tdjw https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ethical-hipsters-are-driv....
- HenryBemis 9y ago
  "Hurdles" is too ambiguous and vague. I think the issue was cost and not application of existing technologies. If specs do not require for a 800km autonomy, max speed of 170km/h and no leather seats, no auto-pilot, no high-end stereo system, and so on, then yes ("money" or lack of IT is a big "hurdle".. no?)

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

Tepix 9y ago

It's disappointing that the Sinclair X-1 (http://newatlas.com/sinclair-x1-pedal-electric/16838/ http://newatlas.com/sinclair-x1-pedal-electric/16838/) never made it to the market. I think there's a niche for a mass produced pedelec with a shell.

m0nty 9y ago
You can get fully-functional velomobiles which are basically "pedelec with a shell" but far from being mass-produced (I'm guessing you probably know this anyway). I'd love to have one but they are expensive and (in the UK) I'm sure some drivers would be very bullying or dangerous around them (it's bad enough sometimes on a bike). In the Netherlands, a different story: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5x1Zw5kovA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5x1Zw5kovA
awjr 9y ago
The problem is that these types of wide pedelec do not cope with the way many councils provide cycle infrastructure requiring users to mix with cars. At which point being in a wider pedelec stops you filtering traffic and you just become 'stuck' in traffic. Another issue is parking, with many bicycles, you can find a lampost/sheffield stand and just lock them to it, this seems to need a parking space.

pjc50 9y ago

Bit of electric delivery vehicle history that seems to be UK-specific: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milk_float https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milk_float They were gradually phased out from the 90s onwards due to the decline in demand for doorstep delivery. Maybe we'll see a comeback?

bjackman 9y ago
We had these where I grew up, all the way to the 2010s. They were slow and had limited range but that isn't a problem for milk delivery which is on suburban roads in the middle of the night. However they were surprisingly noisy - I was a mild insomniac and always knew when 2.30AM came round because I could hear the milk float buzzing past outside.

Gravityloss 9y ago

I think there's been a lot of projects like this around the world? In Finland there have been the Elcat electric delivery vans for the local post office and others since 1990. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elcat_Electric_Vehicles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elcat_Electric_Vehicles You see them around every now and then in private use, but of course the technology is outdated by now.

e2e4 9y ago

in Japan a delivery with a bicycle (for the last miles) is quite popular and works quite well: http://mamabicycle.blogspot.jp/2011/05/kuroneko-eco-delivery-kyoto-japan.html http://mamabicycle.blogspot.jp/2011/05/kuroneko-eco-delivery...