13 ms·

In Search of Zoroastrian Manuscripts in Iran

187 points by benbreen 10y ago

saiya-jin 10y ago
Interesting religion this Zoroastrianism, arguably the first monotheistic religion. Been to Iran, even to Yazd few years back, which is still world centre for this religion having their holy fire burning for centuries (millenia?) in their temple. Freddie Mercury was one, albeit born in Zanzibar. Back then he was not very proud of it, I presume in layman's view it must have been akin to some witchcraft in UK. Just behind the city of Yazd there are towers of silence - where they chopped their dead and left them to vultures - still used in '70s. I guess their cultural revolution stopped these practices, so now they just bury their dead in big concrete slab (not spoiling the elements like earth, water or air) behind the city. Truly remarkable places to visit, before mass tourism will come (or US bombs the place for some obscure reason completely unrelated to oil and local power games). Cannot recommend enough! Just bear in mind you won't be able to go to US afterwards but... as non-US, I would always choose such a wonderful and welcoming country and great people over police state of US these days (as much as I like regular US folks, the system you guys live in leaves much to be desired)
- openasocket 10y ago
  There's also a substantial Zoroastrian presence in India, for people not willing or able to travel to Iran. There are towers of silence there too, and are in active use. It may be a better place to visit if you wish to see the religion actively practiced.
- geekifier 10y ago
  > as non-US, I would always choose such a wonderful and welcoming country and great people over police state of US these days The US certainly has many issues, but I find calling it a "Police State", while praising the Islamic Republic of Iran in the same sentence quite ironic.
  - wavefunction 10y ago
    Heavily militarized SWAT vs mongrel basijis. Sadly few are truly free from the heavy hand of authoritarianism.
  - njharman 10y ago
    Then educate thyself. Besides all the anedotal evidence of police militirazation, violence, the USA has THE largest prison population in the world and almost the highest % of population in prison, #2 (after seychelles) with 693 per 100k. Iran is way down list at #37 with 287. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarcera... Also, the way Iran is today (i.e. not the progressive democratic country it was) is due to the UK/USA replacing elected government with a religious autocrat. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9ta...
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - mason240 10y ago
      I suppose if the US simply executed criminals at the rate Iran does, we would have a lower population as well. We could also lower the number of people incarnated if we had public lashings instead, as Iran does. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Iran https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Iran
      - dmix 10y ago
        > We could also lower the number of people incarnated if we had public lashings instead, as Iran does. And hanging people from cranes in public squares...
  - WilliamDhalgren 10y ago
    > The US certainly has many issues, but I find calling it a "Police State", while praising the Islamic Republic of Iran in the same sentence quite ironic. you mean, praising it as a tourist destination? How's that even controversial? Iran is an absolutely enchanting place to visit. Now, agreed that calling the US a "police state .. these days" is still quite an exaggeration, but notice the context - the absolutely shocking, police-state-like US visa policy, mentioned in the prior sentence! You only have to weaken the premise a bit to make it a perfectly sensible claim (and perhaps a bit of rethorical hyperbole is excusable?) : If the authoritarian behavior of the US government forces one to chose between visiting a place as beautiful as Iran, and visiting the US, surely that's an easy choice!
- nfg 10y ago
  > Just bear in mind you won't be able to go to US afterwards It's worth clarifying that this isn't strictly true, at least for everyone. I've been in the US twice since visiting Iran for a few weeks in 2011, admittedly I got a bit of a grilling the first time, but second time around it didn't seem to cause any issues. However things have changed now that if you've visited Iran you're no longer eligible for the visa-waiver (if you're from a country that had that to begin with) so it does require a trip to the embassy for a visa before going to the US. I've yet to go through that process, so perhaps I'm being naive in assuming a visa will be forthcoming (at least for this pasty-faced Irishman).
- rrggrr 10y ago
  Great reply, until you turned it into an anti-US rant.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- finid 10y ago
  What about the part where men and women are forbidden from even shaken hands in public?
  - hni 10y ago
    This is not true, not sure where you got this from? Source: I'm Iranian and have shaken many women's hands in Iran publicly. No lashings so far :)
    - gooddeeds 10y ago
      it is absolutely true. "Aberoo Dari" is not a good enough reason to fool ourselves any other way.
- thisisauserid 10y ago
  Around 1344 BCE the 18th dynasty pharaoh Akhenaten proclaimed [0] that the solar disk (the Aten) was the only god. Sure, it didn't last very long but he was the first monotheist in history. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Hymn_to_the_Aten#Excerpts_of_the_hymn-poem_to_Aten https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Hymn_to_the_Aten#Excerpt...
  - openasocket 10y ago
    It should be noted this should be taken with a grain of salt. The exact dates of the founding of Judaism and Zoroastrianism are not precisely known, and our best guesses vary by centuries. Atenism is probably the oldest monotheistic religion, but it's not certain.
jatsign 10y ago
There's not much information in this blog post. They seem to be "looking" for manuscripts, but don't mention finding them yet. I guess I'm curios why it has so many upvotes?
- StreamBright 10y ago
  I guess there are many zoroastrians among HN readers.
  - numbsafari 10y ago
    There are many lovers of old manuscripts and lost histories among HN fans is more likely the case.
  - dominotw 10y ago
    I know HN has a big population of Indian readers. Avesta has close relationship to Vedic Hinduism. Eg: Avestan Mithra is the Vedic Mitra, Sanskrit Asura is Avestan Ahura, Vedic divinity Varuna and the Avestan deity Ahura Mazda. The name for India in the Avesta is Hindu,Languange of Rig-Veda is closely related to language of Avesta. So on.
    - Ar-Curunir 10y ago
      This is actually pretty cool; the similarity stems from the Proto-Indo-Iranian religion, which split into two branches, one going into Iran, and another into India. Zoroastrianism adopted these concepts and made a entirely new religion out of them. It's interesting that Asuras are demonkind in Hinduism, but are gods in Proto-Indo-Iranian religion. It's especially interesting, because the word for Hindu gods or devas, is cognate with Deus, which is the word for God in Latin and Greek and other ancient European languages. So the split seems to have occurred after the Indo-Iranian and European branches forked.
      - wavefunction 10y ago
        From what little I admittedly know, 'gods' and 'demons' in Vedic traditions are more of clans than determiners of good or evil natures. In some epics gods do evil against good demons and vis versa in other works. I suppose with enough human history in a culture you will be able to point to at least one example of anything.
glitchc 10y ago
Zoroastrians moved to India from Iran in two separate waves, the first circa 800 AD and another circa 1500 AD. There are Atashes (fire temples) in Udvada, just north of Mumbai that have been burning for over a millenia now. Zoroastrians are, on average, wealthier compared to the average Indian population. They were the first Indian sub-group to learn English under British rule and were thus heavily involved in commercial endeavours, benefitting them monetarily. The community is endogamous however and there are no conversions. Most Zoroastrians have now migrated to Western countries, North America being a very popular destination, as are UK and Australia. There is still a Tower of Silence in the heart of Mumbai on some very prime real estate.
- yazaddaruvala 10y ago
  I don't know if I can answer people's questions but I was born Parsi (I.e. Zoroastrians from India). AMA
  - ocschwar 10y ago
    Do you see your community's future existence as secure?
    - yazaddaruvala 10y ago
      lol, I definitely see a sound future existence for rhetorical questions. In all seriousness: If you're describing Parsis, then likely no. People are not allowed to convert to being Parsi. It isn't a religion, it is a sub-culture. Legally in India, you're only Parsi if you were born to of a Parsi man. Dumb patriarcal rule, which dwindles the Parsi populations. If you're describing Zorastians, I couldn't say. It seems unlikely to die, its lasted too long, I'm sure it'll stick if only for nostalgia. The liklyhood that in the future children will be born Zorastrian is improbable. However, to be Zorastrian you don't technically have to acknowledge it. To the best of my knowledge, if you act Zorastrian, you are Zorastrian. And the most important mantra among Zorastrians is "Good thoughts, lead to good words, lead to good deeds". Additionally, we are too accepting for our own good. Zorastrians to the best of my knowledge have no official restrictions. You're still Zorastrian if you gamble, if you drink, if you eat whatever. We are accepting of our culture's "death", accepting of other religions[1], accepting (even encouraged) to be critically minded. Sadly, while being critically minded, ends up creating a positively disproportionate number of Parsis becoming "successful"[0], it also means most of us are also critically minded towards religion (i.e. "is there even a god?"). I can expand on this last statement a bit more (in regards to Parsis, not Iranis - I don't know too much about Iranian Zorastrian cultural perspectives). I myself, and what I see of my friends, and their parents, we tend to respect god as if we believe, however, we don't act like we do. I myself, consider myself a poly-ideologist. And love to irritate my religious friends (of all faiths) with "I must believe in god. I pray when shit gets tough, but I don't irritate god by thinking about it the rest of the time." I myself, have come to realize that my Zorastrian/Parsi beliefs are foundational, but they do not provide the framework. I had to personally build my personal framework, originating from that foundation. Which it seems to me most others from my community do. Maybe this was intentional? Maybe this is just how the oldest religion alive had to evolve to scale/continue itself. Finally, it's unclear what you mean by "your community's future existence", so I'll leave you with this. Long story short, I don't think these "brands" (i.e. Parsi, maybe even Zorastrian) will last. However, the mentality/ideology is infectious. Any child brought up around it adopts it. A lot of adults I've spoken to who are "apathetic" or "atheist" have actually reached similar/identical conclusions. Hopefully, that answers your question. [0] If you use successful people per capita as a metric, Parsis are likely on top of the list. As such I view a causal relationship with intelligence. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_captivity; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_captivity; "Persian's conquer Babylon ... a year later the Jews are allowed to leave [or do as they please]"
futun 10y ago
The real authoritarianism in the US is that of ideology. The US has a nascent but extremely scary monolithic, fundamentalist belief system surrounding "new liberal" ideologies. Try arguing immigration policy, environmental policy, basic income, minimum wages or any other liberal position on purely economic grounds and you will swiftly be labeled a racist or a fascist and sent into ideological exile. Whatever logic one brings to bear will be irrelevant. Non-conforming positions are "evil". The round peg of logic must be made to fit the square hole of the ideological narrative. The US has long past the era of open debate, and has entered an era of authoritarian thought-control. ... Next the resident social justice taliban will mod this comment into the dirt. It's obviously racist... or something. 'Just glad I don't live there.
- nkrisc 10y ago
  > Try arguing immigration policy, environmental policy, basic income, minimum wages or any other liberal position on purely economic grounds If only the world worked in purely economic terms. My guess is that you might be labeled such things, perhaps not fairly, when making such arguments because such arguments ignore a huge part of the equation: the social and cultural realities we live with that color those issues.
  - futun 10y ago
    Note: I said "purely economic" and you essentially said: "But social". See the danger? Intellectual discussions must now be passed through the filter of social narratives? So pointing out any mathematical reality which has negative social implications is therefore a display of support for said negative social implications? No. That's ridiculous. The world isn't rainbows and unicorns. And many morally commendable policies will and must fail mathematically. Being the "messenger" that points out said mathematical realities isn't a display of support for fascism.
    - JetSpiegel 10y ago
      You seem to be conflating Economics with Mathematics. Besides the fact that both use numbers, there's not much in common between the two.
simplicio 10y ago
Weirdly, until a few years ago, I'd only encountered Zoroastrianism in books about Alex the Great, Ancient Persia, etc. and for whatever reason figured it was an ancient religion that between the Muslims and Mongols, had died out a Millennium ago. It was kind of a weird sensation then when someone mentioned to me that Feddie Mercury was from a Zoroastrian family. Like if I found out Jude Law had a sister that was a Vestal Virgin or something.
- bogomipz 10y ago
  Indeed Freddie Mercury was a Parsi which is the term for Zoroastrian in India. It's believed they fled during the Arab conquest of Persia. I came across this article a while back on the Parsi community in India, that's a worth a read: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-35219331 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-35219331 Something else I found fascinating were the Parsi "Towers of Silence" in India: https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/jan/26/death-city-lack-vultures-threatens-mumbai-towers-of-silence https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/jan/26/death-city-la...
- pmichaud 10y ago
  Additionally, in a "memetic genealogy" sense, Zoroastrianism didn't die, it evolved into modern Christianity.
  - azernik 10y ago
    It exerted influence on both Judaism and Christianity, but "evolved into" is overstating the connection a bit.
    - bogomipz 10y ago
      Yazidism, the religion the Yazidis combines elements of Zoroastrianism, Islam, Christianity and Judaism.
      - openasocket 10y ago
        Yes, but that's an example of syncretism, the mixing of religious beliefs and practices. To extend the analogy to biological evolution, Yazidism is not the "missing link" between those religions, but rather an example of cross-pollination or hybridization.
olivermarks 10y ago
thx benbreen for posting - fascinating
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
ngcc_hk 10y ago
the discussion is very interesting. Tracing the influence of Z to Judaism then Christianity would be interesting.
ngcc_hk 10y ago
Whilst I found the Hong Kong branch or influence of this religion interesting, one cannot help a desecendent of this religion - Manichaeism - has a major mark in chinese history and even recent literal culture. The Ming dynasty was said to be found partially based on this religion. ...

187 points by benbreen 10y ago

Interesting religion this Zoroastrianism, arguably the first monotheistic religion. Been to Iran, even to Yazd few years back, which is still world centre for this religion having their holy fire burning for centuries (millenia?) in their temple. Freddie Mercury was one, albeit born in Zanzibar. Back then he was not very proud of it, I presume in layman's view it must have been akin to some witchcraft in UK. Just behind the city of Yazd there are towers of silence - where they chopped their dead and left them to vultures - still used in '70s. I guess their cultural revolution stopped these practices, so now they just bury their dead in big concrete slab (not spoiling the elements like earth, water or air) behind the city. Truly remarkable places to visit, before mass tourism will come (or US bombs the place for some obscure reason completely unrelated to oil and local power games). Cannot recommend enough! Just bear in mind you won't be able to go to US afterwards but... as non-US, I would always choose such a wonderful and welcoming country and great people over police state of US these days (as much as I like regular US folks, the system you guys live in leaves much to be desired)

openasocket 10y ago
There's also a substantial Zoroastrian presence in India, for people not willing or able to travel to Iran. There are towers of silence there too, and are in active use. It may be a better place to visit if you wish to see the religion actively practiced.
geekifier 10y ago
> as non-US, I would always choose such a wonderful and welcoming country and great people over police state of US these days The US certainly has many issues, but I find calling it a "Police State", while praising the Islamic Republic of Iran in the same sentence quite ironic.
- wavefunction 10y ago
  Heavily militarized SWAT vs mongrel basijis. Sadly few are truly free from the heavy hand of authoritarianism.
- njharman 10y ago
  Then educate thyself. Besides all the anedotal evidence of police militirazation, violence, the USA has THE largest prison population in the world and almost the highest % of population in prison, #2 (after seychelles) with 693 per 100k. Iran is way down list at #37 with 287. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarcera... Also, the way Iran is today (i.e. not the progressive democratic country it was) is due to the UK/USA replacing elected government with a religious autocrat. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9ta...
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - mason240 10y ago
    I suppose if the US simply executed criminals at the rate Iran does, we would have a lower population as well. We could also lower the number of people incarnated if we had public lashings instead, as Iran does. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Iran https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Iran
    - dmix 10y ago
      > We could also lower the number of people incarnated if we had public lashings instead, as Iran does. And hanging people from cranes in public squares...
- WilliamDhalgren 10y ago
  > The US certainly has many issues, but I find calling it a "Police State", while praising the Islamic Republic of Iran in the same sentence quite ironic. you mean, praising it as a tourist destination? How's that even controversial? Iran is an absolutely enchanting place to visit. Now, agreed that calling the US a "police state .. these days" is still quite an exaggeration, but notice the context - the absolutely shocking, police-state-like US visa policy, mentioned in the prior sentence! You only have to weaken the premise a bit to make it a perfectly sensible claim (and perhaps a bit of rethorical hyperbole is excusable?) : If the authoritarian behavior of the US government forces one to chose between visiting a place as beautiful as Iran, and visiting the US, surely that's an easy choice!
nfg 10y ago
> Just bear in mind you won't be able to go to US afterwards It's worth clarifying that this isn't strictly true, at least for everyone. I've been in the US twice since visiting Iran for a few weeks in 2011, admittedly I got a bit of a grilling the first time, but second time around it didn't seem to cause any issues. However things have changed now that if you've visited Iran you're no longer eligible for the visa-waiver (if you're from a country that had that to begin with) so it does require a trip to the embassy for a visa before going to the US. I've yet to go through that process, so perhaps I'm being naive in assuming a visa will be forthcoming (at least for this pasty-faced Irishman).
rrggrr 10y ago
Great reply, until you turned it into an anti-US rant.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
finid 10y ago
What about the part where men and women are forbidden from even shaken hands in public?
- hni 10y ago
  This is not true, not sure where you got this from? Source: I'm Iranian and have shaken many women's hands in Iran publicly. No lashings so far :)
  - gooddeeds 10y ago
    it is absolutely true. "Aberoo Dari" is not a good enough reason to fool ourselves any other way.
thisisauserid 10y ago
Around 1344 BCE the 18th dynasty pharaoh Akhenaten proclaimed [0] that the solar disk (the Aten) was the only god. Sure, it didn't last very long but he was the first monotheist in history. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Hymn_to_the_Aten#Excerpts_of_the_hymn-poem_to_Aten https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Hymn_to_the_Aten#Excerpt...
- openasocket 10y ago
  It should be noted this should be taken with a grain of salt. The exact dates of the founding of Judaism and Zoroastrianism are not precisely known, and our best guesses vary by centuries. Atenism is probably the oldest monotheistic religion, but it's not certain.

jatsign 10y ago

There's not much information in this blog post. They seem to be "looking" for manuscripts, but don't mention finding them yet. I guess I'm curios why it has so many upvotes?

StreamBright 10y ago
I guess there are many zoroastrians among HN readers.
- numbsafari 10y ago
  There are many lovers of old manuscripts and lost histories among HN fans is more likely the case.
- dominotw 10y ago
  I know HN has a big population of Indian readers. Avesta has close relationship to Vedic Hinduism. Eg: Avestan Mithra is the Vedic Mitra, Sanskrit Asura is Avestan Ahura, Vedic divinity Varuna and the Avestan deity Ahura Mazda. The name for India in the Avesta is Hindu,Languange of Rig-Veda is closely related to language of Avesta. So on.
  - Ar-Curunir 10y ago
    This is actually pretty cool; the similarity stems from the Proto-Indo-Iranian religion, which split into two branches, one going into Iran, and another into India. Zoroastrianism adopted these concepts and made a entirely new religion out of them. It's interesting that Asuras are demonkind in Hinduism, but are gods in Proto-Indo-Iranian religion. It's especially interesting, because the word for Hindu gods or devas, is cognate with Deus, which is the word for God in Latin and Greek and other ancient European languages. So the split seems to have occurred after the Indo-Iranian and European branches forked.
    - wavefunction 10y ago
      From what little I admittedly know, 'gods' and 'demons' in Vedic traditions are more of clans than determiners of good or evil natures. In some epics gods do evil against good demons and vis versa in other works. I suppose with enough human history in a culture you will be able to point to at least one example of anything.

glitchc 10y ago

Zoroastrians moved to India from Iran in two separate waves, the first circa 800 AD and another circa 1500 AD. There are Atashes (fire temples) in Udvada, just north of Mumbai that have been burning for over a millenia now. Zoroastrians are, on average, wealthier compared to the average Indian population. They were the first Indian sub-group to learn English under British rule and were thus heavily involved in commercial endeavours, benefitting them monetarily. The community is endogamous however and there are no conversions. Most Zoroastrians have now migrated to Western countries, North America being a very popular destination, as are UK and Australia. There is still a Tower of Silence in the heart of Mumbai on some very prime real estate.

yazaddaruvala 10y ago
I don't know if I can answer people's questions but I was born Parsi (I.e. Zoroastrians from India). AMA
- ocschwar 10y ago
  Do you see your community's future existence as secure?
  - yazaddaruvala 10y ago
    lol, I definitely see a sound future existence for rhetorical questions. In all seriousness: If you're describing Parsis, then likely no. People are not allowed to convert to being Parsi. It isn't a religion, it is a sub-culture. Legally in India, you're only Parsi if you were born to of a Parsi man. Dumb patriarcal rule, which dwindles the Parsi populations. If you're describing Zorastians, I couldn't say. It seems unlikely to die, its lasted too long, I'm sure it'll stick if only for nostalgia. The liklyhood that in the future children will be born Zorastrian is improbable. However, to be Zorastrian you don't technically have to acknowledge it. To the best of my knowledge, if you act Zorastrian, you are Zorastrian. And the most important mantra among Zorastrians is "Good thoughts, lead to good words, lead to good deeds". Additionally, we are too accepting for our own good. Zorastrians to the best of my knowledge have no official restrictions. You're still Zorastrian if you gamble, if you drink, if you eat whatever. We are accepting of our culture's "death", accepting of other religions[1], accepting (even encouraged) to be critically minded. Sadly, while being critically minded, ends up creating a positively disproportionate number of Parsis becoming "successful"[0], it also means most of us are also critically minded towards religion (i.e. "is there even a god?"). I can expand on this last statement a bit more (in regards to Parsis, not Iranis - I don't know too much about Iranian Zorastrian cultural perspectives). I myself, and what I see of my friends, and their parents, we tend to respect god as if we believe, however, we don't act like we do. I myself, consider myself a poly-ideologist. And love to irritate my religious friends (of all faiths) with "I must believe in god. I pray when shit gets tough, but I don't irritate god by thinking about it the rest of the time." I myself, have come to realize that my Zorastrian/Parsi beliefs are foundational, but they do not provide the framework. I had to personally build my personal framework, originating from that foundation. Which it seems to me most others from my community do. Maybe this was intentional? Maybe this is just how the oldest religion alive had to evolve to scale/continue itself. Finally, it's unclear what you mean by "your community's future existence", so I'll leave you with this. Long story short, I don't think these "brands" (i.e. Parsi, maybe even Zorastrian) will last. However, the mentality/ideology is infectious. Any child brought up around it adopts it. A lot of adults I've spoken to who are "apathetic" or "atheist" have actually reached similar/identical conclusions. Hopefully, that answers your question. [0] If you use successful people per capita as a metric, Parsis are likely on top of the list. As such I view a causal relationship with intelligence. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_captivity; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_captivity; "Persian's conquer Babylon ... a year later the Jews are allowed to leave [or do as they please]"

futun 10y ago

The real authoritarianism in the US is that of ideology. The US has a nascent but extremely scary monolithic, fundamentalist belief system surrounding "new liberal" ideologies. Try arguing immigration policy, environmental policy, basic income, minimum wages or any other liberal position on purely economic grounds and you will swiftly be labeled a racist or a fascist and sent into ideological exile. Whatever logic one brings to bear will be irrelevant. Non-conforming positions are "evil". The round peg of logic must be made to fit the square hole of the ideological narrative. The US has long past the era of open debate, and has entered an era of authoritarian thought-control. ... Next the resident social justice taliban will mod this comment into the dirt. It's obviously racist... or something. 'Just glad I don't live there.

nkrisc 10y ago
> Try arguing immigration policy, environmental policy, basic income, minimum wages or any other liberal position on purely economic grounds If only the world worked in purely economic terms. My guess is that you might be labeled such things, perhaps not fairly, when making such arguments because such arguments ignore a huge part of the equation: the social and cultural realities we live with that color those issues.
- futun 10y ago
  Note: I said "purely economic" and you essentially said: "But social". See the danger? Intellectual discussions must now be passed through the filter of social narratives? So pointing out any mathematical reality which has negative social implications is therefore a display of support for said negative social implications? No. That's ridiculous. The world isn't rainbows and unicorns. And many morally commendable policies will and must fail mathematically. Being the "messenger" that points out said mathematical realities isn't a display of support for fascism.
  - JetSpiegel 10y ago
    You seem to be conflating Economics with Mathematics. Besides the fact that both use numbers, there's not much in common between the two.

simplicio 10y ago

Weirdly, until a few years ago, I'd only encountered Zoroastrianism in books about Alex the Great, Ancient Persia, etc. and for whatever reason figured it was an ancient religion that between the Muslims and Mongols, had died out a Millennium ago. It was kind of a weird sensation then when someone mentioned to me that Feddie Mercury was from a Zoroastrian family. Like if I found out Jude Law had a sister that was a Vestal Virgin or something.

bogomipz 10y ago
Indeed Freddie Mercury was a Parsi which is the term for Zoroastrian in India. It's believed they fled during the Arab conquest of Persia. I came across this article a while back on the Parsi community in India, that's a worth a read: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-35219331 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-35219331 Something else I found fascinating were the Parsi "Towers of Silence" in India: https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/jan/26/death-city-lack-vultures-threatens-mumbai-towers-of-silence https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/jan/26/death-city-la...
pmichaud 10y ago
Additionally, in a "memetic genealogy" sense, Zoroastrianism didn't die, it evolved into modern Christianity.
- azernik 10y ago
  It exerted influence on both Judaism and Christianity, but "evolved into" is overstating the connection a bit.
  - bogomipz 10y ago
    Yazidism, the religion the Yazidis combines elements of Zoroastrianism, Islam, Christianity and Judaism.
    - openasocket 10y ago
      Yes, but that's an example of syncretism, the mixing of religious beliefs and practices. To extend the analogy to biological evolution, Yazidism is not the "missing link" between those religions, but rather an example of cross-pollination or hybridization.

olivermarks 10y ago

thx benbreen for posting - fascinating

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

ngcc_hk 10y ago

the discussion is very interesting. Tracing the influence of Z to Judaism then Christianity would be interesting.

ngcc_hk 10y ago

Whilst I found the Hong Kong branch or influence of this religion interesting, one cannot help a desecendent of this religion - Manichaeism - has a major mark in chinese history and even recent literal culture. The Ming dynasty was said to be found partially based on this religion. ...