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It's good they caught the callers, but whoever dispatched the SWAT team was negligent, allowing the team to be used as a weapon. The SWAT team itself was also

It's good they caught the callers, but whoever dispatched the SWAT team was negligent, allowing the team to be used as a weapon. The SWAT team itself was also negligent, not adequately assessing the situation on the ground. Control of SWAT should really not be at the local police level, but at the state level. The fact that SWATing is a thing shows just how broken the current model is. The use of SWAT should be extremely rare.

Maxious 10y ago
"SWAT team use has spiked from around 3,000 strikes per year in 1980 to as many as 80,000 raids a year now. A battering ram or other forced-entry device is used in two-thirds of these raids, nearly 80 percent of which target private homes. The great bulk of SWAT raids are in service of the drug war, though nearly four out of 10 find no contraband at all." https://theweek.com/articles/531458/troubling-rise-swat-teams https://theweek.com/articles/531458/troubling-rise-swat-team...
- Cthulhu_ 10y ago
  40% is a fairly high success rate though, I think. Of course, it's probably usually just small amounts, a small bag of something or another here and there.
  - simonh 10y ago
    Would the success rate be significantly lower if normal police procedures were followed instead? To count as a 'success' fro SWAT they would need to show that SWAT methods were appropriate and necessary.
    - coldtea 10y ago
      It's even worse, as to count as a success, they would also need to show not just that they find something in more cases than without swat, but that the extra disturbance they cause when they don't find anything is worth it too. Not to mention that what they find should be worth found too (e.g. some kid's stash of weed or some guy's coke is not to be counted among the "successes" -- you don't send a SWAT team for that, you send it to major dealers).
  - babuskov 10y ago
    "4/10 found nothing" means that success rate is 60%
    - dghf 10y ago
      To be picky, it means that it's no greater than 60%. I'm not sure that an armed raid which turned up, say, the dog end of a joint or a line's worth of speed should be counted as a success.
    - dsmithatx 10y ago
      Given the honesty of the police historically "4/10 found nothing" means a 40% total fuck up rate. 60% who knows wtf really went down.
  - SmellyGeekBoy 10y ago
    I'm sure the other 60% who had their property destroyed and fully automatic weapons shoved in their faces while being forced to the ground and handcuffed will be pleased to hear this news.
    - dsmithatx 10y ago
      I'm sure the dead people of those 60% are just dancing in their graves at the "success".
  - dogma1138 10y ago
    SWAT makes a courtesy knock then they ram the door open and throw flashbangs before they burst in with their fingers on the trigger and take you down by force. If this is the police response you think is appropriate for the vast majority of police calls then I think you should reevaluate your country of residence.
    - vanattab 10y ago
      ”the vast majority of police calls” you got any statistics to back that claim up? Are you saying that much more then 50 percent of police calls lead to swat raids?
      - tux1968 10y ago
        What he is asserting is that in the vast majority of cases where SWAT is used it is not an appropriate escalation from more mundane police procedures.
      - lj3 10y ago
        In Maryland, 90% of SWAT deployments were to serve search warrants, with two-thirds through forced entry. I'm sure you could go state by state and find similar percentages. source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-knock_warrant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-knock_warrant
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
  - kakarot 10y ago
    What are we defining as success here? I don't think targeting minority demographics via drug raids is successful no matter how often they find drugs. The success rate isn't what we're concerned with. It's simply used to illustrate the larger problem of an overly militarized police state with little regard over its use of force
  - psyc 10y ago
    And thank god. Truly a small price to pay for deliverance from the drug epidemic!
  - dsmithatx 10y ago
    To invoke a swat team killing people and, given the fourth amendment, I for one, don't think 40% is high or a success. Maybe you are high?
- mtempleton 10y ago
  Yes, and you're not even mentioning any of the particularly comically-sad, egregious examples, such as last year police using a military helicopter to seize a marijuana plant from an 81 year old woman[1]. The goal of this kind of thing is to condition us to a new-normal. 1 - https://www.rt.com/usa/361982-marijuana-pensioner-police-helicopter/ https://www.rt.com/usa/361982-marijuana-pensioner-police-hel...
- dzdt 10y ago
  If you search houses at random, what percent contain no contraband at all? A lot of the counted "successes" could be incidental. Swat receives a tip on a major criminal operation, finds a single joint stashed somewhere, calls it a success.
hacker_9 10y ago
> The fact that SWATing is a thing shows just how broken the current model is Hard to think of a better model though; you never know what call is going to be real. Additionally getting local police involved does make a lot of sense, as they should have invaluable knowledge of the area and the people.
- panic 10y ago
  Maybe we could try one of the many models used successfully in other countries?
  - orbat 10y ago
    This sort of suggestion is usually countered by pointing out how big/unique/different the US is, hence things that work everywhere else in the world just won't cut it. Which I understand to an extent, but often it sounds more like a cop-out than an actual analysis of the situation.
  - lj3 10y ago
    Which one? And before you answer, you must choose a model from a country with similar demographics to the US. Saying Japan's or Sweden's model works for them isn't going to do us much good.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- kbart 10y ago
  "Hard to think of a better model though" No, it's not. USA is probably the only western country with such militarized, trigger happy police force and still does worse[0] than any EU country and most Asia countries in controlling crime. 0. https://www.numbeo.com/crime/gmaps_rankings_country.jsp https://www.numbeo.com/crime/gmaps_rankings_country.jsp
  - lj3 10y ago
    You're comparing apples and oranges. EU and Asian countries are ethnically homogeneous. You need to compare America to other melting pots, like Brazil and Argentina.
mxxx 10y ago
If you're interested in how this kind of thing happens (and alarmingly how often it happens), this book is an excellent read: https://www.amazon.com/Rise-Warrior-Cop-Militarization-Americas/dp/1610394577 https://www.amazon.com/Rise-Warrior-Cop-Militarization-Ameri...
bfuller 10y ago
I live next to a large police building and it is amazing to see the SWAT teams deploy. They drive out in these huge tank like vehicles with members sitting fully outside of the vehicle, holding their rifles and staring down everyone around them. It really is power projection from a totalitarian state

Maxious 10y ago

"SWAT team use has spiked from around 3,000 strikes per year in 1980 to as many as 80,000 raids a year now. A battering ram or other forced-entry device is used in two-thirds of these raids, nearly 80 percent of which target private homes. The great bulk of SWAT raids are in service of the drug war, though nearly four out of 10 find no contraband at all." https://theweek.com/articles/531458/troubling-rise-swat-teams https://theweek.com/articles/531458/troubling-rise-swat-team...

Cthulhu_ 10y ago
40% is a fairly high success rate though, I think. Of course, it's probably usually just small amounts, a small bag of something or another here and there.
- simonh 10y ago
  Would the success rate be significantly lower if normal police procedures were followed instead? To count as a 'success' fro SWAT they would need to show that SWAT methods were appropriate and necessary.
  - coldtea 10y ago
    It's even worse, as to count as a success, they would also need to show not just that they find something in more cases than without swat, but that the extra disturbance they cause when they don't find anything is worth it too. Not to mention that what they find should be worth found too (e.g. some kid's stash of weed or some guy's coke is not to be counted among the "successes" -- you don't send a SWAT team for that, you send it to major dealers).
- babuskov 10y ago
  "4/10 found nothing" means that success rate is 60%
  - dghf 10y ago
    To be picky, it means that it's no greater than 60%. I'm not sure that an armed raid which turned up, say, the dog end of a joint or a line's worth of speed should be counted as a success.
  - dsmithatx 10y ago
    Given the honesty of the police historically "4/10 found nothing" means a 40% total fuck up rate. 60% who knows wtf really went down.
- SmellyGeekBoy 10y ago
  I'm sure the other 60% who had their property destroyed and fully automatic weapons shoved in their faces while being forced to the ground and handcuffed will be pleased to hear this news.
  - dsmithatx 10y ago
    I'm sure the dead people of those 60% are just dancing in their graves at the "success".
- dogma1138 10y ago
  SWAT makes a courtesy knock then they ram the door open and throw flashbangs before they burst in with their fingers on the trigger and take you down by force. If this is the police response you think is appropriate for the vast majority of police calls then I think you should reevaluate your country of residence.
  - vanattab 10y ago
    ”the vast majority of police calls” you got any statistics to back that claim up? Are you saying that much more then 50 percent of police calls lead to swat raids?
    - tux1968 10y ago
      What he is asserting is that in the vast majority of cases where SWAT is used it is not an appropriate escalation from more mundane police procedures.
    - lj3 10y ago
      In Maryland, 90% of SWAT deployments were to serve search warrants, with two-thirds through forced entry. I'm sure you could go state by state and find similar percentages. source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-knock_warrant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-knock_warrant
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- kakarot 10y ago
  What are we defining as success here? I don't think targeting minority demographics via drug raids is successful no matter how often they find drugs. The success rate isn't what we're concerned with. It's simply used to illustrate the larger problem of an overly militarized police state with little regard over its use of force
- psyc 10y ago
  And thank god. Truly a small price to pay for deliverance from the drug epidemic!
- dsmithatx 10y ago
  To invoke a swat team killing people and, given the fourth amendment, I for one, don't think 40% is high or a success. Maybe you are high?
mtempleton 10y ago
Yes, and you're not even mentioning any of the particularly comically-sad, egregious examples, such as last year police using a military helicopter to seize a marijuana plant from an 81 year old woman[1]. The goal of this kind of thing is to condition us to a new-normal. 1 - https://www.rt.com/usa/361982-marijuana-pensioner-police-helicopter/ https://www.rt.com/usa/361982-marijuana-pensioner-police-hel...
dzdt 10y ago
If you search houses at random, what percent contain no contraband at all? A lot of the counted "successes" could be incidental. Swat receives a tip on a major criminal operation, finds a single joint stashed somewhere, calls it a success.

hacker_9 10y ago

> The fact that SWATing is a thing shows just how broken the current model is Hard to think of a better model though; you never know what call is going to be real. Additionally getting local police involved does make a lot of sense, as they should have invaluable knowledge of the area and the people.

panic 10y ago
Maybe we could try one of the many models used successfully in other countries?
- orbat 10y ago
  This sort of suggestion is usually countered by pointing out how big/unique/different the US is, hence things that work everywhere else in the world just won't cut it. Which I understand to an extent, but often it sounds more like a cop-out than an actual analysis of the situation.
- lj3 10y ago
  Which one? And before you answer, you must choose a model from a country with similar demographics to the US. Saying Japan's or Sweden's model works for them isn't going to do us much good.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
kbart 10y ago
"Hard to think of a better model though" No, it's not. USA is probably the only western country with such militarized, trigger happy police force and still does worse[0] than any EU country and most Asia countries in controlling crime. 0. https://www.numbeo.com/crime/gmaps_rankings_country.jsp https://www.numbeo.com/crime/gmaps_rankings_country.jsp
- lj3 10y ago
  You're comparing apples and oranges. EU and Asian countries are ethnically homogeneous. You need to compare America to other melting pots, like Brazil and Argentina.

mxxx 10y ago

If you're interested in how this kind of thing happens (and alarmingly how often it happens), this book is an excellent read: https://www.amazon.com/Rise-Warrior-Cop-Militarization-Americas/dp/1610394577 https://www.amazon.com/Rise-Warrior-Cop-Militarization-Ameri...

bfuller 10y ago

I live next to a large police building and it is amazing to see the SWAT teams deploy. They drive out in these huge tank like vehicles with members sitting fully outside of the vehicle, holding their rifles and staring down everyone around them. It really is power projection from a totalitarian state