4 ms·

I like your project. I've done a life simulator myself: http://leverlabs.io/blog20160714/ http://leverlabs.io/blog20160714/ Would really want to see a simulato

by ozy 9y ago

I like your project. I've done a life simulator myself: http://leverlabs.io/blog20160714/ http://leverlabs.io/blog20160714/ Would really want to see a simulator that allows for self copying, but does not provide that copying mechanism directly.

goldenkey 9y ago
That's really cool. I see how you sort of built in decay through age. I think the golden information principles for emergent life are easier to find than biological ones, but of course the requirements of space, time, etc are much larger when ones' simulation is at a lower level of abstraction. It really is a question of level of emergent behavior versus level of base behavior. Even QM can be emergent from deterministic automata. [1] [1] https://arxiv.org/abs/1405.1548 https://arxiv.org/abs/1405.1548
- ozy 9y ago
  I have tried a few approaches at not having the simulator provide the copying function. But so far no luck. Do you have any concrete ideas? I would suggest it needs to be a simulation in which self-organisation is possible. But also catalyzation and self-catalyzation (autocatalysis)[1]. From there it is a small step to self-copying and thus ... evolution. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autocatalysis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autocatalysis
  - goldenkey 9y ago
    Reproduction for RNA/DNA and cells, and later multicellular life, is an emergent property of some heavy-handed universal laws. I would suggest forgetting about reproduction and focusing on principles of information storage and movement. Computation is really the cornerstone of reproduction. In any large enough space that allows computation, computers will pop up that copy themselves. By chance. They will then dominate if their resource requirements allow them to. That's the ticket. Emergent reproduction.
    - ozy 9y ago
      "computers will pop up that copy themselves" That is interesting idea. But do they pop up because the simulator provides the compute? Or because the simulator allows for the construction of structures that can compute? I don't think you mean the first, as that is not too interesting to your goal. The latter is unlikely. How many possible configurations are there, and how many of those can compute? Let alone compute + copy? The universe will end before a random such entity appears. Gravity causes matter to self organise into globes with disks. Charged molecules + surface tension causes crystallisation. Organic molecules support self-catylization. From such organising principles there is a change self-copying arises before the universe ends. Or your EC2 budget ;)
      - goldenkey 9y ago
        Yes both. The sim provides the dynamics that allow for computers to exist. At a basic level, even simple phenomena are computations. RNA polymerase performs a computation when it copies. And we can go really low level, pretty much everything is a computation - of course, not all computations are equivalently great for life. You are assuming this universe ends. In a type of heat death or singularity (choose your poison.) Not if gravity isn't part of the dynamics. And even then, the universe could be a cyclic one. [1] Most likely EC2 is not the right approach. I have worked with Cuda and OpenCL and buying a bunch of beefy Teslas or the new Titans would be more cost effective. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclic_model https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclic_model
        ozy 9y ago
        Every simulator of any kind can be described as "compute". The question is, can the simulated environment itself support a new level of compute? And if so, how independent is that compute? Redstone in minecraft supports compute, but is not fully independent. That is, the "laws of physics" of minecraft include special rules for redstone. RNA polymerase is fully independent, the "laws of physics" do not have special rules for RNA. So that last thing is the interesting bit in your effort, correct? Now you seem to hope that the second level compute comes about randomly. But for that to do anything before the end of time, the ration between: random states that compute / all possible random states must be reasonable. And even then, one could argue that how those random states come about should be such that it is nothing special in the "laws of physics", or it is still "cheating". What I am trying to point out, in our universe, the big bang was a shitload of energy in low entropy state. Due to gravity it started self organising. And due to many other self organising effects, we got to self copying ...

by ozy 9y ago

goldenkey 9y ago

That's really cool. I see how you sort of built in decay through age. I think the golden information principles for emergent life are easier to find than biological ones, but of course the requirements of space, time, etc are much larger when ones' simulation is at a lower level of abstraction. It really is a question of level of emergent behavior versus level of base behavior. Even QM can be emergent from deterministic automata. [1] [1] https://arxiv.org/abs/1405.1548 https://arxiv.org/abs/1405.1548

ozy 9y ago
I have tried a few approaches at not having the simulator provide the copying function. But so far no luck. Do you have any concrete ideas? I would suggest it needs to be a simulation in which self-organisation is possible. But also catalyzation and self-catalyzation (autocatalysis)[1]. From there it is a small step to self-copying and thus ... evolution. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autocatalysis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autocatalysis
- goldenkey 9y ago
  Reproduction for RNA/DNA and cells, and later multicellular life, is an emergent property of some heavy-handed universal laws. I would suggest forgetting about reproduction and focusing on principles of information storage and movement. Computation is really the cornerstone of reproduction. In any large enough space that allows computation, computers will pop up that copy themselves. By chance. They will then dominate if their resource requirements allow them to. That's the ticket. Emergent reproduction.
  - ozy 9y ago
    "computers will pop up that copy themselves" That is interesting idea. But do they pop up because the simulator provides the compute? Or because the simulator allows for the construction of structures that can compute? I don't think you mean the first, as that is not too interesting to your goal. The latter is unlikely. How many possible configurations are there, and how many of those can compute? Let alone compute + copy? The universe will end before a random such entity appears. Gravity causes matter to self organise into globes with disks. Charged molecules + surface tension causes crystallisation. Organic molecules support self-catylization. From such organising principles there is a change self-copying arises before the universe ends. Or your EC2 budget ;)
    - goldenkey 9y ago
      Yes both. The sim provides the dynamics that allow for computers to exist. At a basic level, even simple phenomena are computations. RNA polymerase performs a computation when it copies. And we can go really low level, pretty much everything is a computation - of course, not all computations are equivalently great for life. You are assuming this universe ends. In a type of heat death or singularity (choose your poison.) Not if gravity isn't part of the dynamics. And even then, the universe could be a cyclic one. [1] Most likely EC2 is not the right approach. I have worked with Cuda and OpenCL and buying a bunch of beefy Teslas or the new Titans would be more cost effective. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclic_model https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclic_model
      - ozy 9y ago
        Every simulator of any kind can be described as "compute". The question is, can the simulated environment itself support a new level of compute? And if so, how independent is that compute? Redstone in minecraft supports compute, but is not fully independent. That is, the "laws of physics" of minecraft include special rules for redstone. RNA polymerase is fully independent, the "laws of physics" do not have special rules for RNA. So that last thing is the interesting bit in your effort, correct? Now you seem to hope that the second level compute comes about randomly. But for that to do anything before the end of time, the ration between: random states that compute / all possible random states must be reasonable. And even then, one could argue that how those random states come about should be such that it is nothing special in the "laws of physics", or it is still "cheating". What I am trying to point out, in our universe, the big bang was a shitload of energy in low entropy state. Due to gravity it started self organising. And due to many other self organising effects, we got to self copying ...