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You can also just do a tip jar model or patreon. So far, for me, the tip jar has been more successful than ads or Patreon (though I am new to Patreon, so, time

by Mz 10y ago

You can also just do a tip jar model or patreon. So far, for me, the tip jar has been more successful than ads or Patreon (though I am new to Patreon, so, time will tell). I would be happy to get rid of ads altogether (with the exception of one site, for REASONS) if I thought that would drive up tips. But I have experimented a bit and it didn't seem to drive up tips. Then, whenever I read these discussions, there is a great deal of vitriol about the evil of ads, yet, most people don't actually want to pay for content. They just want it free. When you suggest this is a broken model and content producers also deserve compensation, the answer is typically "not my problem," basically. As a content producer, I find it enormously frustrating to read some of the awful things that get said. It reminds me of the line in All in the Family where Archie says men are supposed to have experience before marriage and women are not and his daughter asks "Who are they supposed to get their experience with?" My snarky son's answer: Elderly widows should be deflowering young men. It fits all the parameters of the expectations while horrifying most people. An awful lot of people are only thinking about "I don't want ads" and that's it. They basically want it for free, then don't think about what that means for the big picture. /rambling vent

WalterBright 10y ago
I don't mind the ads up to a point. For example, I buy "Mopar Muscle" for the ads, not the articles. I'd buy computer mags (yes, I'm dating myself) for the ads as much as the articles, too. The Yellow Pages (I'm really old) were useful for the ads. Not all advertising is objectionable.
- Mz 10y ago
  If you know of a better means than google ads to do advertisements for a one person shop that isn't going to take enormous time away from producing content, I am all ears.
  - WalterBright 10y ago
    We don't use ads for the D programming language. What we do, and I've done in the past, is write articles about programming that are interesting in their own right, and that happen to use D: http://digitalmars.com/articles/ http://digitalmars.com/articles/ Pretty much all programming products, even free ones, operate this way. Much of the content you see on Hacker News, and on reddit/r/programming, is of this form. There are TV shows that do the same thing, such as "Detroit Muscle". Each show is about how to do a repair/customization job on a car, and various tools and products are used to do it (and the makers of those tools and products pay for the show). Tupperware parties are another example of this sort of thing. It's like having a free cooking class where you show people how to cook with butter, and you're in the butter business. The hit TV show "This Old House" was all paid for by the products and tools used in the show. It didn't look like advertising, but that's exactly what it was. And it works, and people love the show (I loved it, too). I.e. organic marketing.
    - Mz 10y ago
      That is basically my plan for my next website. But some problem spaces are not served well by that model. Also, I think there is a substantial learning curve for doing something like that well and not being borderline con artist.
username223 10y ago
> You can also just do a tip jar model or patreon. I've contemplated this kind of thing, but it feels like panhandling, and I'm reluctant to go there. I would do it if I thought I could do so tastefully and respectfully. I'm a (non-tech-related) "content producer," and I absolutely refuse to put up ads or be a shill or "native advertiser." Instead, I wrote a book, and if people want to support what I do, they can buy it. It's not enough to be a day job, but it probably could be with day-job levels of time and effort, and my "content consumers" appreciate my integrity.
- neltnerb 10y ago
  I think people donating on Patreon get the whole "predictable income makes an artist's life an awful lot easier" thing, if you're looking for a tactful way to approach the topic. Saying that you'd like to be able to make it your full time job is a very reasonable thing as well, and I imagine people get that you need some kind of salary to do it. Both of these are things that I, if I were a frequent visitor to your site, would have a pretty good incentive to make happen.
- Mz 10y ago
  When I had donate buttons, I literally had someone tell me I was panhandling the internet. Tip jars are a better way to signal "It took work to create value here and compensation is appreciated." It has gotten a very different response from people. I am glad your strategy is working for you. But, if you are interested: http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2015/11/how-to-make-paypal-tip-jar.html http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2015/11/how-to-make-...
  - username223 10y ago
    Thanks for the link. I may give this a try and see if people use it. I think I have more drive-by readers than regulars, so this probably makes more sense than Patreon. BTW, kudos for writing the "Survival Guide." I ran across it at random awhile ago, and it has some great advice.
    - 10y ago
jtrip 10y ago
I don't think that people want things for free. People want things with the least amount of effort, money or not; Steam and Netflix have proven as much in context of piracy. People don't pirate as much because they have always wanted to enjoy games/movies, not derive pleasure from denying publishers money and these services provide a way to do just that. Adverts are a pain in the back for the user, they take up bandwidth and processing time and that fucks with the experience. If you could simply charge $50 for a ticket for the whole amusement park, once you are in you don't have to worry about paying but only the experience, rather than nickel and dime them people would gladly pay that amount. It's about the convenience/experience.
HillaryBriss 10y ago
> Elderly widows should be deflowering young men. It fits all the parameters of the expectations while horrifying most people. "When you're young, it's all filet steak, but as the years go by, you have to move on to the cheap cuts. Which is fine with me, because I like those. More flavorful, or so they say." - M. Gustave (The Grand Budapest Hotel)
executesorder66 10y ago
> When you suggest this is a broken model and content producers also deserve compensation, the answer is typically "not my problem," basically. I hate ads. I hate that they track you. I hate that they waste data. But most of all I hate that they are annoying. I always use an ablocker and I don't care if you don't get paid because I didn't look at an ad. I am still busy with my degree this year. (I am studying part time) But next year I want to start my own website. With a blog and a place to share my side projects. Will I put ads on the website? Fuck no. In fact I will put up messages begging people to install adblockers if I detect that they aren't using one. Just because I write some interesting code or article and then share it on the public internet, doesn't mean people now owe me money. I don't deserve compensation for putting stuff on the internet, and why would anyone else? But if my employer didn't pay me I would be really pissed off. Because we have an agreement that I will write code for them and they will pay me for it. I don't remember signing a contract with the whole internet saying that I will pay everyone who publicly shares some text or other media. If someone is butthurt that they can't make a product/service/content valuable enough to sell it for money, but instead rely on advertisers for money, then that is their problem. Do you think we all deserve to be paid for commenting on hackernews? Lots of people here write incredibly interesting and insightful comments. We all do it for free without complaining. Edit: formatting/spelling
- builditand 10y ago
  > I will put up messages begging people to install adblockers if I detect that they aren't using one. Best idea today, thanks! I pirate it.
  - austinjp 10y ago
    Although this is itself a form of advertising..?
    - builditand 10y ago
      I guess it is, but it feels more like defense so I'm ok with it.
FT_intern 10y ago
Probably wouldn't work for bigger companies or people who don't want to publicly reveal themselves as the owner of the site. There needs to be a personal element for that to be efficient
- Mz 10y ago
  And larger companies can have a department devoted to developing quality advertising (or other solutions). Google ads tend to appeal to very small operations that need a plug and play solution to try to monetize their work. I am still wrestling with the question. I like the progress I am seeing. It is a good trend for me. But it is far from a solved problem. However, for the traffic numbers etc that I have, I seem to do better than average.
protomyth 10y ago
Patreon has a rather large problem for poorer people. Patreon's insistance on taking the money on the 1st of the month is a pain because that is rent day for most people. A service that allowed a person to select a day (e.g. 12th) or better yet pick a day the way a lot of people get paid (day after third Thursday of the month) would be preferred. [edit] To give a concrete example. Suppose someone on Social Security wants to pay for their sites/shows/etc. SS pays on the third Wednesday of the month. This person, in order to avoid any bank charges or other foolishness, wants the payment to come the day after that. "Day after 3rd Wednesday of month" would be a good thing to allow.
- joshuamorton 10y ago
  To be completely honest, if this is an issue, that person probably shouldn't be using patreon at all.
  - sah2ed 10y ago
    You observation was already covered in the very first sentence: > Patreon has a rather large problem for poorer people.
  - protomyth 10y ago
    No. I don't think you get the problem. If I'm spending $10 or so on all these media and entertainment folks, the first day of the month might be bad, but the 20th or day after the 3rd Wednesday might be just fine. A lot of people living on fixed incomes or paycheck to paycheck manage their money closely. Given how banks work, a $1 charge at the wrong time is seriously problematic. I realize SV never has to worry, but how about making it easier for janitor who cleans your building or the person making your coffee to participate in the digital economy?
    - Mz 10y ago
      You let such people participate by designing systems where content producers can make money without getting money from every individual. I think you have a point, but perhaps you should submit it as a suggestion directly to Patreon. Second, I have tip jars so people can give once without making a monthly commitment. Monthly commitments are a serious burden for poor people. I intentionally list dollar amounts of $1, $3 and $5 to solicit small sums so people who can't afford more than $1 feel okay about giving $1. The jar is set up so you can then enter a quantity if you want to give more, for example 2 Tips at $5 to leave a total of $10. Most people who tip leave me $5 or more. But I do sometimes get $1. (This is really about 67 cents for me, but I don't want to treat other poor people like charity cases. I think that actively creates problems.)

by Mz 10y ago

WalterBright 10y ago

I don't mind the ads up to a point. For example, I buy "Mopar Muscle" for the ads, not the articles. I'd buy computer mags (yes, I'm dating myself) for the ads as much as the articles, too. The Yellow Pages (I'm really old) were useful for the ads. Not all advertising is objectionable.

Mz 10y ago
If you know of a better means than google ads to do advertisements for a one person shop that isn't going to take enormous time away from producing content, I am all ears.
- WalterBright 10y ago
  We don't use ads for the D programming language. What we do, and I've done in the past, is write articles about programming that are interesting in their own right, and that happen to use D: http://digitalmars.com/articles/ http://digitalmars.com/articles/ Pretty much all programming products, even free ones, operate this way. Much of the content you see on Hacker News, and on reddit/r/programming, is of this form. There are TV shows that do the same thing, such as "Detroit Muscle". Each show is about how to do a repair/customization job on a car, and various tools and products are used to do it (and the makers of those tools and products pay for the show). Tupperware parties are another example of this sort of thing. It's like having a free cooking class where you show people how to cook with butter, and you're in the butter business. The hit TV show "This Old House" was all paid for by the products and tools used in the show. It didn't look like advertising, but that's exactly what it was. And it works, and people love the show (I loved it, too). I.e. organic marketing.
  - Mz 10y ago
    That is basically my plan for my next website. But some problem spaces are not served well by that model. Also, I think there is a substantial learning curve for doing something like that well and not being borderline con artist.

username223 10y ago

> You can also just do a tip jar model or patreon. I've contemplated this kind of thing, but it feels like panhandling, and I'm reluctant to go there. I would do it if I thought I could do so tastefully and respectfully. I'm a (non-tech-related) "content producer," and I absolutely refuse to put up ads or be a shill or "native advertiser." Instead, I wrote a book, and if people want to support what I do, they can buy it. It's not enough to be a day job, but it probably could be with day-job levels of time and effort, and my "content consumers" appreciate my integrity.

neltnerb 10y ago
I think people donating on Patreon get the whole "predictable income makes an artist's life an awful lot easier" thing, if you're looking for a tactful way to approach the topic. Saying that you'd like to be able to make it your full time job is a very reasonable thing as well, and I imagine people get that you need some kind of salary to do it. Both of these are things that I, if I were a frequent visitor to your site, would have a pretty good incentive to make happen.
Mz 10y ago
When I had donate buttons, I literally had someone tell me I was panhandling the internet. Tip jars are a better way to signal "It took work to create value here and compensation is appreciated." It has gotten a very different response from people. I am glad your strategy is working for you. But, if you are interested: http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2015/11/how-to-make-paypal-tip-jar.html http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2015/11/how-to-make-...
- username223 10y ago
  Thanks for the link. I may give this a try and see if people use it. I think I have more drive-by readers than regulars, so this probably makes more sense than Patreon. BTW, kudos for writing the "Survival Guide." I ran across it at random awhile ago, and it has some great advice.
  - 10y ago

jtrip 10y ago

I don't think that people want things for free. People want things with the least amount of effort, money or not; Steam and Netflix have proven as much in context of piracy. People don't pirate as much because they have always wanted to enjoy games/movies, not derive pleasure from denying publishers money and these services provide a way to do just that. Adverts are a pain in the back for the user, they take up bandwidth and processing time and that fucks with the experience. If you could simply charge $50 for a ticket for the whole amusement park, once you are in you don't have to worry about paying but only the experience, rather than nickel and dime them people would gladly pay that amount. It's about the convenience/experience.

HillaryBriss 10y ago

> Elderly widows should be deflowering young men. It fits all the parameters of the expectations while horrifying most people. "When you're young, it's all filet steak, but as the years go by, you have to move on to the cheap cuts. Which is fine with me, because I like those. More flavorful, or so they say." - M. Gustave (The Grand Budapest Hotel)

executesorder66 10y ago

> When you suggest this is a broken model and content producers also deserve compensation, the answer is typically "not my problem," basically. I hate ads. I hate that they track you. I hate that they waste data. But most of all I hate that they are annoying. I always use an ablocker and I don't care if you don't get paid because I didn't look at an ad. I am still busy with my degree this year. (I am studying part time) But next year I want to start my own website. With a blog and a place to share my side projects. Will I put ads on the website? Fuck no. In fact I will put up messages begging people to install adblockers if I detect that they aren't using one. Just because I write some interesting code or article and then share it on the public internet, doesn't mean people now owe me money. I don't deserve compensation for putting stuff on the internet, and why would anyone else? But if my employer didn't pay me I would be really pissed off. Because we have an agreement that I will write code for them and they will pay me for it. I don't remember signing a contract with the whole internet saying that I will pay everyone who publicly shares some text or other media. If someone is butthurt that they can't make a product/service/content valuable enough to sell it for money, but instead rely on advertisers for money, then that is their problem. Do you think we all deserve to be paid for commenting on hackernews? Lots of people here write incredibly interesting and insightful comments. We all do it for free without complaining. Edit: formatting/spelling

builditand 10y ago
> I will put up messages begging people to install adblockers if I detect that they aren't using one. Best idea today, thanks! I pirate it.
- austinjp 10y ago
  Although this is itself a form of advertising..?
  - builditand 10y ago
    I guess it is, but it feels more like defense so I'm ok with it.

FT_intern 10y ago

Probably wouldn't work for bigger companies or people who don't want to publicly reveal themselves as the owner of the site. There needs to be a personal element for that to be efficient

Mz 10y ago
And larger companies can have a department devoted to developing quality advertising (or other solutions). Google ads tend to appeal to very small operations that need a plug and play solution to try to monetize their work. I am still wrestling with the question. I like the progress I am seeing. It is a good trend for me. But it is far from a solved problem. However, for the traffic numbers etc that I have, I seem to do better than average.

protomyth 10y ago

Patreon has a rather large problem for poorer people. Patreon's insistance on taking the money on the 1st of the month is a pain because that is rent day for most people. A service that allowed a person to select a day (e.g. 12th) or better yet pick a day the way a lot of people get paid (day after third Thursday of the month) would be preferred. [edit] To give a concrete example. Suppose someone on Social Security wants to pay for their sites/shows/etc. SS pays on the third Wednesday of the month. This person, in order to avoid any bank charges or other foolishness, wants the payment to come the day after that. "Day after 3rd Wednesday of month" would be a good thing to allow.

joshuamorton 10y ago
To be completely honest, if this is an issue, that person probably shouldn't be using patreon at all.
- sah2ed 10y ago
  You observation was already covered in the very first sentence: > Patreon has a rather large problem for poorer people.
- protomyth 10y ago
  No. I don't think you get the problem. If I'm spending $10 or so on all these media and entertainment folks, the first day of the month might be bad, but the 20th or day after the 3rd Wednesday might be just fine. A lot of people living on fixed incomes or paycheck to paycheck manage their money closely. Given how banks work, a $1 charge at the wrong time is seriously problematic. I realize SV never has to worry, but how about making it easier for janitor who cleans your building or the person making your coffee to participate in the digital economy?
  - Mz 10y ago
    You let such people participate by designing systems where content producers can make money without getting money from every individual. I think you have a point, but perhaps you should submit it as a suggestion directly to Patreon. Second, I have tip jars so people can give once without making a monthly commitment. Monthly commitments are a serious burden for poor people. I intentionally list dollar amounts of $1, $3 and $5 to solicit small sums so people who can't afford more than $1 feel okay about giving $1. The jar is set up so you can then enter a quantity if you want to give more, for example 2 Tips at $5 to leave a total of $10. Most people who tip leave me $5 or more. But I do sometimes get $1. (This is really about 67 cents for me, but I don't want to treat other poor people like charity cases. I think that actively creates problems.)