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Muttering "Just kill me" does not immediately mean a conclusion of possible mental issues. After all, the guy just had his face smashed against an armrest so it

Muttering "Just kill me" does not immediately mean a conclusion of possible mental issues. After all, the guy just had his face smashed against an armrest so it's not beyond the realm of imagination that he would a) be traumatized and b) have a concussion. So rather than us armchair quarterbacking it, why not let more of the facts solidify before passing judgement? PS. I'm not sure if I would say that the article you linked to counts as "measured". Here's a different article (comes with citation of United's Contract of Carriage): https://thefederalist.com/2017/04/11/did-united-airlines-violate-its-own-contract-by-forcing-that-passenger-off-the-plane/ https://thefederalist.com/2017/04/11/did-united-airlines-vio...

FabHK 10y ago
Agreed, we need more facts. But until then the uncritical condemnation of United is as unjustified as condemnation of the passenger (which I might have engaged in, to an extent - but for now I still think he should have just disembarked, or possibly pleaded with the other pax to volunteer, but not refuse). In my view, the Independent article gives the "received wisdom", while the article you linked is from a (self-professed) non-expert reading the conditions of carriage and doing some hairsplitting there. Edit: Independent, not Telegraph
- newman314 10y ago
  That makes no sense. From what I can tell, The Independent article was not sourced from an expert either so your attempt to show that the Independent article has more "weight" does not back things up. Here's an article quoting an aviation attorney: http://www.philly.com/philly/columnists/stu_bykofsky/United-Airlines-right-is-wrong-for-passengers-.html http://www.philly.com/philly/columnists/stu_bykofsky/United-... "Under certain conditions, airlines can bar passengers from boarding - if the passenger is unruly or intoxicated or on a terrorist watch list - but United had no right to remove Dao, says aviation law expert Arthur Wolk, a Center City attorney who read the 45-page “contract of carriage.” Wolk says Dao “absolutely” had the right to the seat, and this was not a case of “overbooking,” he says, because all the passengers had seats. What happened to Dao was “assault and battery,” he says. “There’s absolutely no humanity left in the airline business,” Wolk says, adding that United routinely finishes low in surveys of passenger satisfaction. “I would sue their asses off.” Is there any question that Dao is going to sue? John Banzhaf, a professor at the George Washington University Law School, agrees with Wolk’s analysis. He says United is “citing the wrong federal rule to justify its illegal request to force a passenger already boarded and seated to disembark.”" Regardless of the outcome, I would hope that people will agree that injury in a case like this is not deserved and not just "too bad, he didn't behave himself".
  - FabHK 10y ago
    I think the contention that Dao "absolutely" had the right to the seat is too strong. Wolk seems to know his stuff, and his contention that he "would sue their asses off" might well be true (he has sued Piper, USAir, the NTSB, AVweb.com, and threatened to sue TechDirt, who wrote "We have heard of multiple other bloggers who have decided that they simply will not write anything about Arthur Alan Wolk out of fear of being sued by him."). Let me cite another source though, Bloomberg, which, again, echoes the received wisdom as far as I can tell: 1. Can airlines just throw seated passengers off planes? Yes. When you purchase an airline ticket you’re also entering into a detailed contract that specifies the many rights an airline has related to the trip. One of them allows the carrier to seize your seat in return for compensation and an alternate means of transport, usually on a later flight. Airlines also can determine that when their employees must be somewhere for duty -- a status that, yes, may place them ahead of paying customers -- a passenger’s seat can be taken. That’s because not positioning a crew member can lead to a future flight cancellation or delay. > Thatcher Stone, a lawyer who has successfully sued airlines over bumping incidents, advises that passengers should always follow instructions of airline crew, no matter how strongly they may feel. Agreed that injury was not deserved, but what do you suggest should be done if people don't follow a lawful order to vacate the premises? https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-04-11/can-airlines-really-do-that-bumping-and-the-law-quicktake-q-a https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-04-11/can-airli...

FabHK 10y ago

Agreed, we need more facts. But until then the uncritical condemnation of United is as unjustified as condemnation of the passenger (which I might have engaged in, to an extent - but for now I still think he should have just disembarked, or possibly pleaded with the other pax to volunteer, but not refuse). In my view, the Independent article gives the "received wisdom", while the article you linked is from a (self-professed) non-expert reading the conditions of carriage and doing some hairsplitting there. Edit: Independent, not Telegraph

newman314 10y ago
That makes no sense. From what I can tell, The Independent article was not sourced from an expert either so your attempt to show that the Independent article has more "weight" does not back things up. Here's an article quoting an aviation attorney: http://www.philly.com/philly/columnists/stu_bykofsky/United-Airlines-right-is-wrong-for-passengers-.html http://www.philly.com/philly/columnists/stu_bykofsky/United-... "Under certain conditions, airlines can bar passengers from boarding - if the passenger is unruly or intoxicated or on a terrorist watch list - but United had no right to remove Dao, says aviation law expert Arthur Wolk, a Center City attorney who read the 45-page “contract of carriage.” Wolk says Dao “absolutely” had the right to the seat, and this was not a case of “overbooking,” he says, because all the passengers had seats. What happened to Dao was “assault and battery,” he says. “There’s absolutely no humanity left in the airline business,” Wolk says, adding that United routinely finishes low in surveys of passenger satisfaction. “I would sue their asses off.” Is there any question that Dao is going to sue? John Banzhaf, a professor at the George Washington University Law School, agrees with Wolk’s analysis. He says United is “citing the wrong federal rule to justify its illegal request to force a passenger already boarded and seated to disembark.”" Regardless of the outcome, I would hope that people will agree that injury in a case like this is not deserved and not just "too bad, he didn't behave himself".
- FabHK 10y ago
  I think the contention that Dao "absolutely" had the right to the seat is too strong. Wolk seems to know his stuff, and his contention that he "would sue their asses off" might well be true (he has sued Piper, USAir, the NTSB, AVweb.com, and threatened to sue TechDirt, who wrote "We have heard of multiple other bloggers who have decided that they simply will not write anything about Arthur Alan Wolk out of fear of being sued by him."). Let me cite another source though, Bloomberg, which, again, echoes the received wisdom as far as I can tell: 1. Can airlines just throw seated passengers off planes? Yes. When you purchase an airline ticket you’re also entering into a detailed contract that specifies the many rights an airline has related to the trip. One of them allows the carrier to seize your seat in return for compensation and an alternate means of transport, usually on a later flight. Airlines also can determine that when their employees must be somewhere for duty -- a status that, yes, may place them ahead of paying customers -- a passenger’s seat can be taken. That’s because not positioning a crew member can lead to a future flight cancellation or delay. > Thatcher Stone, a lawyer who has successfully sued airlines over bumping incidents, advises that passengers should always follow instructions of airline crew, no matter how strongly they may feel. Agreed that injury was not deserved, but what do you suggest should be done if people don't follow a lawful order to vacate the premises? https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-04-11/can-airlines-really-do-that-bumping-and-the-law-quicktake-q-a https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-04-11/can-airli...