4 ms·

So they are encouraging people to go to work sick under penalty of losing portions of their bonus? How long until a strong version of the flu puts whole teams o

So they are encouraging people to go to work sick under penalty of losing portions of their bonus? How long until a strong version of the flu puts whole teams out of commision? It's things like this that cause me to always reply "Thanks, but no thanks" to their recruiters whenever they reach out to me.

itsdrewmiller 9y ago
If they go to work and get everyone sick their bonuses would be lower, right? Seems like this policy aligns incentives well, in theory. May actually lead to a lot of people at work while sick and providing lower productivity days, in practice.
- jacquesm 9y ago
  No, that's not a good comparison. The comparison should be: team of 20 people with one person sick at home versus team of 20 people at work but all sick. The first one will handily outperform the second one.
- squeaky-clean 9y ago
  > If they go to work and get everyone sick their bonuses would be lower, right? Only if those people choose to go home. Otherwise you've got a sick team in the office trying to hold onto their bonuses.
- GCA10 9y ago
  Most serious illnesses are not contagious. So if sick days were largely a function of how many people came down with the flu, we could analyze both options. But when people are out sick for protracted periods because of pregancy-related complications, cardiac issues, battles with cancer, or even injuries related to car crashes, skiing misadventures, etc., there's nothing that aligns group bonuses with compassion or prudent quarantines. If anything, the policy feels as if it skews toward minimizing compassion.
namelezz 9y ago
You can accept their invitation and screw up on the onsite interview. Just enjoy visiting whatever city that they fly you to.
- ipince 9y ago
  Not that I'm suggesting you do this, but if you're going through the trouble of flying out to interview, you might as well do well. In the worst case, you are where you started, and in the best case you have a good offer that can give you leverage in other negotiations.
  - wlesieutre 9y ago
    And when you take the other job instead, be sure to tell Amazon "It sounds like a great opportunity, but I have a comparable offer without your godawful sick policy." Amazon's doing this because they think the extra hours they'll squeeze out of employees outweighs the talent that it costs them.
- tdb7893 9y ago
  Why would you screw up the interview? Just decline the offer.
- victorhn 9y ago
  Being doing this countless times, i always screw up onsites unintentionally though :(
ne01 9y ago
Recently I have been sending this video to all recruiters and investors who contact me! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFGmC8m0kIo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFGmC8m0kIo
- clamstar 9y ago
  Edgy.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
Mithaldu 9y ago
E: Some of these details may be incorrect. See the posts below for some discussion. That is exactly what they're doing, and here's why: Germany has a minimum wage. As long as they pay above that, they can mess with bonuses above that as much as they want. But workers have an additional protection: If they get sick, and a doctor determines they're unfit to work (which they happily do for anything that isn't straight-up faking it), the health insurance will start paying half their wage, and the company has to continue paying the other half. The company also cannot fire the worker (unless the worker indicates unwillingness to get better). A relative of mine got cancer. The company he was with ended up paying his wages for over half a year, because they had no legal way of finding out what was wrong with him, and he indicated he intended to get back to work asap, despite knowing he would never again be able to. So for german companies workers being sick can be a considerable money sink, especially if they are not determined to actually build loyalty with their workers. Those companies end up doing things like this. The german national rail company does similar things as well already.
- _ak 9y ago
  > A relative of mine got cancer. The company he was with ended up paying his wages for over half a year, because they had no legal way of finding out what was wrong with him I call BS. If you're off sick for 6 weeks in a row with the same diagnosis, the employer stops paying, and the employee has to apply for sick pay (Krankengeld) with their health insurance (Krankenkasse). No doctor is allowed to sign off a patient for longer than 4 weeks at once (i.e. the sick note has to be renewed every 4 weeks), this is even mandated by the public health insurances. So obviously there is no way for the employer to find out for how long an employee will be off sick in the long run, it's meant to be like that, and the employer shouldn't care about it because they're not paying salaries for sickness longer than 6 weeks. In addition to that, there's even a system in place, named "Hamburger Modell", to reintegrate long-term sick patients back into their workplace by working part-time hours, and it's even paid by the health insurance. Source: was long-term off sick and went through the whole shpiel.
  - doktrin 9y ago
    Yeah I don't believe the parent either. What you're describing is basically how health leave works in most of western Europe : the employer pays for the first X days, then the state [aka. insurance provider] takes over for long term disability.

itsdrewmiller 9y ago

If they go to work and get everyone sick their bonuses would be lower, right? Seems like this policy aligns incentives well, in theory. May actually lead to a lot of people at work while sick and providing lower productivity days, in practice.

jacquesm 9y ago
No, that's not a good comparison. The comparison should be: team of 20 people with one person sick at home versus team of 20 people at work but all sick. The first one will handily outperform the second one.
squeaky-clean 9y ago
> If they go to work and get everyone sick their bonuses would be lower, right? Only if those people choose to go home. Otherwise you've got a sick team in the office trying to hold onto their bonuses.
GCA10 9y ago
Most serious illnesses are not contagious. So if sick days were largely a function of how many people came down with the flu, we could analyze both options. But when people are out sick for protracted periods because of pregancy-related complications, cardiac issues, battles with cancer, or even injuries related to car crashes, skiing misadventures, etc., there's nothing that aligns group bonuses with compassion or prudent quarantines. If anything, the policy feels as if it skews toward minimizing compassion.

namelezz 9y ago

You can accept their invitation and screw up on the onsite interview. Just enjoy visiting whatever city that they fly you to.

ipince 9y ago
Not that I'm suggesting you do this, but if you're going through the trouble of flying out to interview, you might as well do well. In the worst case, you are where you started, and in the best case you have a good offer that can give you leverage in other negotiations.
- wlesieutre 9y ago
  And when you take the other job instead, be sure to tell Amazon "It sounds like a great opportunity, but I have a comparable offer without your godawful sick policy." Amazon's doing this because they think the extra hours they'll squeeze out of employees outweighs the talent that it costs them.
tdb7893 9y ago
Why would you screw up the interview? Just decline the offer.
victorhn 9y ago
Being doing this countless times, i always screw up onsites unintentionally though :(

ne01 9y ago

Recently I have been sending this video to all recruiters and investors who contact me! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFGmC8m0kIo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFGmC8m0kIo

clamstar 9y ago
Edgy.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]

Mithaldu 9y ago

E: Some of these details may be incorrect. See the posts below for some discussion. That is exactly what they're doing, and here's why: Germany has a minimum wage. As long as they pay above that, they can mess with bonuses above that as much as they want. But workers have an additional protection: If they get sick, and a doctor determines they're unfit to work (which they happily do for anything that isn't straight-up faking it), the health insurance will start paying half their wage, and the company has to continue paying the other half. The company also cannot fire the worker (unless the worker indicates unwillingness to get better). A relative of mine got cancer. The company he was with ended up paying his wages for over half a year, because they had no legal way of finding out what was wrong with him, and he indicated he intended to get back to work asap, despite knowing he would never again be able to. So for german companies workers being sick can be a considerable money sink, especially if they are not determined to actually build loyalty with their workers. Those companies end up doing things like this. The german national rail company does similar things as well already.

_ak 9y ago
> A relative of mine got cancer. The company he was with ended up paying his wages for over half a year, because they had no legal way of finding out what was wrong with him I call BS. If you're off sick for 6 weeks in a row with the same diagnosis, the employer stops paying, and the employee has to apply for sick pay (Krankengeld) with their health insurance (Krankenkasse). No doctor is allowed to sign off a patient for longer than 4 weeks at once (i.e. the sick note has to be renewed every 4 weeks), this is even mandated by the public health insurances. So obviously there is no way for the employer to find out for how long an employee will be off sick in the long run, it's meant to be like that, and the employer shouldn't care about it because they're not paying salaries for sickness longer than 6 weeks. In addition to that, there's even a system in place, named "Hamburger Modell", to reintegrate long-term sick patients back into their workplace by working part-time hours, and it's even paid by the health insurance. Source: was long-term off sick and went through the whole shpiel.
- doktrin 9y ago
  Yeah I don't believe the parent either. What you're describing is basically how health leave works in most of western Europe : the employer pays for the first X days, then the state [aka. insurance provider] takes over for long term disability.