6 ms·

quite a diverse bunch really In comparison to who?

by jimmyk 10y ago

M_Grey 10y ago
Compared to the GP's "Jewish men..." notion, as though that were a useful group descriptor when it comes to behaviors. So, I suppose... compared to the often monolithic notions of Judaism that I so often encounter on and offline.
- jimmyk 10y ago
  as though that were a useful group descriptor when it comes to behaviors. I found it to be useful. In combination with some other comments, it gave me a particular idea about what the article was about.
gumby 10y ago
strict grammarians, for instance, who would only have considered using "whom" in your sentence.
gwbas1c 10y ago
Christianity, where the definition effectively prohibits someone from being both an atheist and a christian.
- jimmyk 10y ago
  So the claim then is that there is greater diversity in thought about whether or not a deity exists among an ethnic group than among a group for which membership is contingent on thinking a deity exists? I don't think that conveys very much information, except that there is not perfect uniformity among ethnic Jews on the issue.
- M_Grey 10y ago
  To be fair, I'm not sure that Islam is too enthusiastic about atheists proclaiming for it either... to put it mildly.
  - mturmon 10y ago
    "There is no god but God" does seem to offer some wiggle room for atheists, but maybe that's an inadvertent loophole.
    - M_Grey 10y ago
      It might, but I think the current climate in much of the Islamic world, while not the crazed image many have, is actually pretty brutal to people within the religion who are seen as blasphemous. From what I know, and I have to admit that this isn't as much as I'd like, the process of proclaiming your faith pretty much involves accepting the existence of god, prophets, the "punishment of the grave," that kind of thing. My impression is that if you're seen to have lied about that, you're lucky just to be outcast. tl;dr It really doesn't pay to be seen as an "apostate" in Islam, at least in most places at this time.
      - DanBC 10y ago
        > From what I know, and I have to admit that this isn't as much as I'd like In general when you're talking about a group of a billion people you should avoid generalisations, especially if you also need to say that you don't know what you're talking about.
        jimmyk 10y ago
        What did he say that was wrong? He didn't say all parts of the Islamic world are brutal to apostates, he just said much of the Islamic world is. And that's absolutely the case. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#Apostasy_in_the_recent_past https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#Apostasy_in_...
        M_Grey 10y ago
        Dan, I'm sorry that you've taken my attempts at diplomacy as a declaration of ignorance. However diverse a billion people may be, that diversity is limited when a requirement of the claimed identity is to recite the shahada with conviction. If you can explain how that can be done, "I declare that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah; and I declare that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah...." without belief in god and a divine prophet of that god, you're going to have to walk me through it. As to the view on apostasy: https://islamqa.info/en/20327 https://islamqa.info/en/20327
- twobuy 10y ago
  Which definition is that, exactly?

quite a diverse bunch really In comparison to who?

by jimmyk 10y ago

quite a diverse bunch really In comparison to who?

Compared to the GP's "Jewish men..." notion, as though that were a useful group descriptor when it comes to behaviors. So, I suppose... compared to the often monolithic notions of Judaism that I so often encounter on and offline.

jimmyk 10y ago
as though that were a useful group descriptor when it comes to behaviors. I found it to be useful. In combination with some other comments, it gave me a particular idea about what the article was about.

gumby 10y ago

strict grammarians, for instance, who would only have considered using "whom" in your sentence.

gwbas1c 10y ago

Christianity, where the definition effectively prohibits someone from being both an atheist and a christian.

jimmyk 10y ago
So the claim then is that there is greater diversity in thought about whether or not a deity exists among an ethnic group than among a group for which membership is contingent on thinking a deity exists? I don't think that conveys very much information, except that there is not perfect uniformity among ethnic Jews on the issue.
M_Grey 10y ago
To be fair, I'm not sure that Islam is too enthusiastic about atheists proclaiming for it either... to put it mildly.
- mturmon 10y ago
  "There is no god but God" does seem to offer some wiggle room for atheists, but maybe that's an inadvertent loophole.
  - M_Grey 10y ago
    It might, but I think the current climate in much of the Islamic world, while not the crazed image many have, is actually pretty brutal to people within the religion who are seen as blasphemous. From what I know, and I have to admit that this isn't as much as I'd like, the process of proclaiming your faith pretty much involves accepting the existence of god, prophets, the "punishment of the grave," that kind of thing. My impression is that if you're seen to have lied about that, you're lucky just to be outcast. tl;dr It really doesn't pay to be seen as an "apostate" in Islam, at least in most places at this time.
    - DanBC 10y ago
      > From what I know, and I have to admit that this isn't as much as I'd like In general when you're talking about a group of a billion people you should avoid generalisations, especially if you also need to say that you don't know what you're talking about.
      - jimmyk 10y ago
        What did he say that was wrong? He didn't say all parts of the Islamic world are brutal to apostates, he just said much of the Islamic world is. And that's absolutely the case. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#Apostasy_in_the_recent_past https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#Apostasy_in_...
      - M_Grey 10y ago
        Dan, I'm sorry that you've taken my attempts at diplomacy as a declaration of ignorance. However diverse a billion people may be, that diversity is limited when a requirement of the claimed identity is to recite the shahada with conviction. If you can explain how that can be done, "I declare that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah; and I declare that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah...." without belief in god and a divine prophet of that god, you're going to have to walk me through it. As to the view on apostasy: https://islamqa.info/en/20327 https://islamqa.info/en/20327
twobuy 10y ago
Which definition is that, exactly?