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> Some people can imitate accents which they don't speak natively, but many people can't do this well at all. E.g., how many Americans can do a good impression

> Some people can imitate accents which they don't speak natively, but many people can't do this well at all. E.g., how many Americans can do a good impression of a British accent? You're confusing "can't" with "not willing to commit the time." Accents are like learning a language -- if you want to rid yourself of an accent, you can. But most people don't. > You can express your opinion if you want, but it's rude and insulting to do so. Look, I'm sorry that you're personally offended by my comment that I can't tell if her speech is due to an accent or a speech impediment, but that's your own problem. There was no value judgment in my initial statement whatsoever, you projected it.

foldr 16y ago
>Accents are like learning a language -- if you want to rid yourself of an accent, you can. No, that's false. People who learn a language past the age of ~13 never achieve native-like phonological competence. (I.e., they always have a "foreign accent", to some extent.) It's also pretty absurd to suggest that people ought to invest large amounts of time attempting to switch from one English accent to another, just because some people are accent snobs. >Look, I'm sorry that you're personally offended by my comment that I can't tell if her speech is due to an accent or a speech impediment, but that's your own problem No need to apologize, I was just pointing out that it's offensive. You can then consider whether or not you want to cause needless offense when you make similar comments in future. Depending on who you choose to offend, it may or may not become your problem as well as their problem.
- georgieporgie 16y ago
  > People who learn a language past the age of ~13 never achieve native-like phonological competence. You're just making up tautologies. You'll find that people over the age of "~13" are not forced by their surroundings to commit 100% to learning a language. You'll also find differences between individuals. > It's also pretty absurd to suggest that people ought to invest large amounts of time attempting to switch from one English accent to another Never said ought, please stop putting words in my mouth. > No need to apologize, I was just pointing out that it's offensive Note that I wasn't apologizing for offending you, rather I was feeling sorry for you that you find offense in a statement which had no judgment in it.
  - foldr 16y ago
    >You'll find that people over the age of "~13" are not forced by their surroundings to commit 100% to learning a language. No, this is a well-established fact about language learning. There is a so-called "critical period" for language acquisition which ends around the onset of puberty (in fact, probably somewhat earlier for phonology). It is essentially impossible for someone over this age to learn to speak a language exactly as a native speaker does. You can search google scholar for academic studies on this. e.g. http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=critical+period+phonology&btnG=Search&as_sdt=20000&as_ylo=&as_vis=0 http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=critical+perio... I'm not sure what you find to be "tautological" about the critical period claim. It's an empirical hypothesis that could in principle be true or false (and there is in fact a lot of evidence for its being true). >rather I was feeling sorry for you that you find offense in a statement which had no judgment in it. You have to bear in mind that your posts are being read by people. If you say that someone's accent sounds like a speech impediment, it's hard to read that as anything other than an insult. If you're confused by the fact that people tend to interpret things in this way, then I feel sorry for you.
    - georgieporgie 16y ago
      > No, this is a well-established fact about language learning. What exactly is your point, anyway? I think you need to review. I said a person can lose or change their accent, that it's no different than learning a language. You insist, "no! It's nothing like learning a language." But now you seem to be trying to use "it's just like a language" to support your claim that people can't change their accent, because you supposedly can't learn a language properly after the age of 13. So which is it? Is changing your accent like learning a language, or isn't it? If it isn't, why are you talking about studies regarding language learning? Anyway, as for this age of 13 business, I've met a number of people who came to the US as late teenagers to early 20's and learned to speak West-coast American English flawlessly. The only indication they might not be native would be communication issues around metaphors. You can rely on a tautology to excuse yourself from mastering languages and accents if you choose to, but I don't. > If you say that someone's accent sounds like a speech impediment There you go again, I said I can't tell if it's an accent or a speech impediment. You're reading judgment into my words again. > If you're confused by the fact that people tend to interpret things in this way, then I feel sorry for you. The only things here that confuse me are 1) why you insist on misconstruing my statements repeatedly and 2) why you want to randomly start arguing about language learning after you said it's irrelevant to accents.

foldr 16y ago

>Accents are like learning a language -- if you want to rid yourself of an accent, you can. No, that's false. People who learn a language past the age of ~13 never achieve native-like phonological competence. (I.e., they always have a "foreign accent", to some extent.) It's also pretty absurd to suggest that people ought to invest large amounts of time attempting to switch from one English accent to another, just because some people are accent snobs. >Look, I'm sorry that you're personally offended by my comment that I can't tell if her speech is due to an accent or a speech impediment, but that's your own problem No need to apologize, I was just pointing out that it's offensive. You can then consider whether or not you want to cause needless offense when you make similar comments in future. Depending on who you choose to offend, it may or may not become your problem as well as their problem.

georgieporgie 16y ago
> People who learn a language past the age of ~13 never achieve native-like phonological competence. You're just making up tautologies. You'll find that people over the age of "~13" are not forced by their surroundings to commit 100% to learning a language. You'll also find differences between individuals. > It's also pretty absurd to suggest that people ought to invest large amounts of time attempting to switch from one English accent to another Never said ought, please stop putting words in my mouth. > No need to apologize, I was just pointing out that it's offensive Note that I wasn't apologizing for offending you, rather I was feeling sorry for you that you find offense in a statement which had no judgment in it.
- foldr 16y ago
  >You'll find that people over the age of "~13" are not forced by their surroundings to commit 100% to learning a language. No, this is a well-established fact about language learning. There is a so-called "critical period" for language acquisition which ends around the onset of puberty (in fact, probably somewhat earlier for phonology). It is essentially impossible for someone over this age to learn to speak a language exactly as a native speaker does. You can search google scholar for academic studies on this. e.g. http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=critical+period+phonology&btnG=Search&as_sdt=20000&as_ylo=&as_vis=0 http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=critical+perio... I'm not sure what you find to be "tautological" about the critical period claim. It's an empirical hypothesis that could in principle be true or false (and there is in fact a lot of evidence for its being true). >rather I was feeling sorry for you that you find offense in a statement which had no judgment in it. You have to bear in mind that your posts are being read by people. If you say that someone's accent sounds like a speech impediment, it's hard to read that as anything other than an insult. If you're confused by the fact that people tend to interpret things in this way, then I feel sorry for you.
  - georgieporgie 16y ago
    > No, this is a well-established fact about language learning. What exactly is your point, anyway? I think you need to review. I said a person can lose or change their accent, that it's no different than learning a language. You insist, "no! It's nothing like learning a language." But now you seem to be trying to use "it's just like a language" to support your claim that people can't change their accent, because you supposedly can't learn a language properly after the age of 13. So which is it? Is changing your accent like learning a language, or isn't it? If it isn't, why are you talking about studies regarding language learning? Anyway, as for this age of 13 business, I've met a number of people who came to the US as late teenagers to early 20's and learned to speak West-coast American English flawlessly. The only indication they might not be native would be communication issues around metaphors. You can rely on a tautology to excuse yourself from mastering languages and accents if you choose to, but I don't. > If you say that someone's accent sounds like a speech impediment There you go again, I said I can't tell if it's an accent or a speech impediment. You're reading judgment into my words again. > If you're confused by the fact that people tend to interpret things in this way, then I feel sorry for you. The only things here that confuse me are 1) why you insist on misconstruing my statements repeatedly and 2) why you want to randomly start arguing about language learning after you said it's irrelevant to accents.