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> Have you been trained as an engineer, in a country where "engineer" is a very specific thing and is held to higher expectations, including the possibility of

> Have you been trained as an engineer, in a country where "engineer" is a very specific thing and is held to higher expectations, including the possibility of having your title taken away by your peers if you do not respect your duty to, first and foremost, your users and/or society, like every country that takes the title of engineer seriously? No country trains software engineers in the way you describe.

ballenf 10y ago
I think Germany was the country described in the post. Whether it's true to the fullest extent is hard to say, but having worked and socialized with them for years it seems mostly true. Engineering is the country's actual official religion. And I mean that as the highest compliment. (No offense to any other country's engineers -- the engineer mindset is the same everywhere, but the mindset of the non-engineer in other countries is the distinction. That is, Germany grants engineers a degree of respect, almost reverence, that I've never seen in the US.)
- ksk 10y ago
  Our company recently purchased some Hardware I/O devices that came with software (both made in Germany). Lets just say, I'd much rather buy their cars than their software.
pikzen 10y ago
All of Europe, also parts of Canada. No place in the US does, indeed.
- cookiecaper 10y ago
  Are there standardized licensing bodies for software developers in the EU and Canada? I'd be really interesting in learning more about them if so. I sympathize your argument and I think the field is doing a great job right now demonstrating some of the upsides of a licensing authority, but actually getting one would be bad IMO. Most software is not life and death, and licensing authorities, like unions, quickly become gatekeepers that work to prevent competition whilst simultaneously enriching themselves through extortionary means (today, these are mostly indirect because everyone is on the look out for them, but they are nevertheless still there). There are good arguments that the AMA and ABA have both seriously contributed to the astronomical expense of their respective services.
  - pikzen 10y ago
    >Are there standardized licensing bodies for software developers in the EU and Canada? For engineers, absolutely. For software engineers, absolutely, because they're still engineers. Software development? Go wild, anyone can do it. >licensing authorities, like unions, quickly become gatekeepers that work to prevent competition whilst simultaneously enriching themselves through extortionary means That seems like a terribly US centric that I keep seeing online. Unions in France, as it's the one example I can be certain of, are in no way gatekeepers, and we are a country where they've been immensely powerful when it comes to influencing the state (whether talking about worker's unions or CEO unions). But you can get any job without being in an union, all they're doing is bringing everyone on an equal footing when it comes to negotiations. Licensing authorities are purely a society thing. Either you have a numerus closus, because the end goal is for everyone that passed the selection to have a guaranteed job, with good living conditions, or anyone can pass, and good luck everyone. It works in some cases, doesn't in others.
- wishinghand 10y ago
  I've never heard of some governing body in France or England taking away the title of "software engineer" for someone who wrote faulty code. What are these governing bodies?
gjjrfcbugxbhf 10y ago
So they should not call themselves engineers - any more than they call themselves doctors or lawyers. They are programmers or software developers. Or potentially software engineers - but certainly not engineers.

ballenf 10y ago

I think Germany was the country described in the post. Whether it's true to the fullest extent is hard to say, but having worked and socialized with them for years it seems mostly true. Engineering is the country's actual official religion. And I mean that as the highest compliment. (No offense to any other country's engineers -- the engineer mindset is the same everywhere, but the mindset of the non-engineer in other countries is the distinction. That is, Germany grants engineers a degree of respect, almost reverence, that I've never seen in the US.)

ksk 10y ago
Our company recently purchased some Hardware I/O devices that came with software (both made in Germany). Lets just say, I'd much rather buy their cars than their software.

pikzen 10y ago

All of Europe, also parts of Canada. No place in the US does, indeed.

cookiecaper 10y ago
Are there standardized licensing bodies for software developers in the EU and Canada? I'd be really interesting in learning more about them if so. I sympathize your argument and I think the field is doing a great job right now demonstrating some of the upsides of a licensing authority, but actually getting one would be bad IMO. Most software is not life and death, and licensing authorities, like unions, quickly become gatekeepers that work to prevent competition whilst simultaneously enriching themselves through extortionary means (today, these are mostly indirect because everyone is on the look out for them, but they are nevertheless still there). There are good arguments that the AMA and ABA have both seriously contributed to the astronomical expense of their respective services.
- pikzen 10y ago
  >Are there standardized licensing bodies for software developers in the EU and Canada? For engineers, absolutely. For software engineers, absolutely, because they're still engineers. Software development? Go wild, anyone can do it. >licensing authorities, like unions, quickly become gatekeepers that work to prevent competition whilst simultaneously enriching themselves through extortionary means That seems like a terribly US centric that I keep seeing online. Unions in France, as it's the one example I can be certain of, are in no way gatekeepers, and we are a country where they've been immensely powerful when it comes to influencing the state (whether talking about worker's unions or CEO unions). But you can get any job without being in an union, all they're doing is bringing everyone on an equal footing when it comes to negotiations. Licensing authorities are purely a society thing. Either you have a numerus closus, because the end goal is for everyone that passed the selection to have a guaranteed job, with good living conditions, or anyone can pass, and good luck everyone. It works in some cases, doesn't in others.
wishinghand 10y ago
I've never heard of some governing body in France or England taking away the title of "software engineer" for someone who wrote faulty code. What are these governing bodies?

gjjrfcbugxbhf 10y ago

So they should not call themselves engineers - any more than they call themselves doctors or lawyers. They are programmers or software developers. Or potentially software engineers - but certainly not engineers.