4 ms·

Isn't that what most of HN is so frantically behind? Free markets at work, deregulated to the point of making little to no economic profit, no consumer protecti

Isn't that what most of HN is so frantically behind? Free markets at work, deregulated to the point of making little to no economic profit, no consumer protections, and what you call a "race to the bottom" is actually what occurs under perfectly competitive markets. Thinking you can have the good parts of competition without the bad parts and being surprised when something happens according to basic economic theory is economic doublethink at its finest. PS: I'm all for cheap flights. It has allowed the working class (and myself) to travel and see the world and not go broke doing it. Hard to imagine but people outside of the IT bubble have to budget for vacations and having cheap flights helps a ton. Ultimately, incidents like these are so rare compared to the passenger volume that it makes no sense for a regular person to worry about it happening to them.

tyingq 10y ago
>Thinking you can have the good parts of competition without the bad parts Er, okay. There are other products and services with heavy competition that aren't a terrible experience. There's more going on here than just generic capitalism.
- antisthenes 10y ago
  > Er, okay. There are other products and services with heavy competition that aren't a terrible experience. Please, elaborate, and be specific about the regulation present in the sale of those products and services.
  - tyingq 10y ago
    Are you asking for highly regulated products and services that aren't terrible? If so, automobile manufacturing is highly regulated, as is banking. Plenty of competition exists. In both, I have a very granular range of choices at different price points, and have no trouble finding ones I am happy with. Airlines generally have two tiers of service, and business/first does nothing for large parts of what makes the experience terrible. Or are you asking about less regulated industries, like hotels or restaurants? Or maybe things that are completely unregulated?
    - antisthenes 10y ago
      In this case, the service being offered by the airline is the booking itself. Your manufacturing analogy isn't appropriate, since they have to meet a minimum standard of safety for the product being sold. It is regulated heavily, because it deals with the potential loss of human life. What's more reliable - a flight that departs on time every time or the aircraft that performs the flight? (In case it isn't obvious, it's a rhetorical question) > as is banking Sure, if we're talking about the safety of putting your money in a CD, which offer no consumer utility whatsoever. It's actually not a service for the consumer, since the bank is the one that makes money on the deposit. A better analogy would have been different credit cards, which is quite a predatory service that, in theory, is possible to benefit from by the consumer, but in practice has little consumer protection if the "incentives" of the cards expire. What I was asking for, and sorry if the intent wasn't clear, were products and services without consumer protection that offer surplus utility to the consumer beyond the service itself, that aren't terrible. If you have a rudimentary knowledge of economics, you'll know it's a trick question, though.
      - tyingq 10y ago
        I feel like some goalposts just moved. Cars can be safe, but still crappy. Only part of their function is regulated. Similar for banks. My bank provides great online functionality, friendly service, and more they aren't obligated to do.
- jstandard 10y ago
  You have the option of paying more for a less terrible experience. Pricing is also customizable, allowing you to target the exact part of the experience you find terrible.
  - tyingq 10y ago
    There's really only two tiers, and the price jump is crazy. And does nothing for large parts of the bad experience.
    - jstandard 10y ago
      I disagree, the flying experience is much more segmented than 2 tiers in the US. Each airline has an a la carte menu of experience configurations. More legroom? Premium Economy (or business/first class) Aisle seat? Pay for seat selection. Slow boarding? Pay for priority. No food? Onboard purchases. Security line too long? TSA Precheck. Long lines at immigration? Global Entry. Whether you're willing to purchase these upgrades is a personal decision, the options are there. In your original post you commented about the pricing "race to the bottom" and the "unbundling of baggage fees". Unbundling means more granular pricing segmentation to attract a higher volume of customers.
      - tyingq 10y ago
        Of course, I'm aware of these things, but I still stick to the 2 tiers of service. The unbundling doesn't really create a new tier of service, it's just poor customer service. Hotels could charge extra for pillows. And TSA precheck and Global entry are not airline offered services. Paying for an aisle seat is a thing only because seat pitch has been squeezed over the years to where a middle seat sucks.
dang 10y ago
> Isn't that what most of HN is so Such perceptions are common but usually in the eye of the beholder. HN is divided about such things.

tyingq 10y ago

>Thinking you can have the good parts of competition without the bad parts Er, okay. There are other products and services with heavy competition that aren't a terrible experience. There's more going on here than just generic capitalism.

antisthenes 10y ago
> Er, okay. There are other products and services with heavy competition that aren't a terrible experience. Please, elaborate, and be specific about the regulation present in the sale of those products and services.
- tyingq 10y ago
  Are you asking for highly regulated products and services that aren't terrible? If so, automobile manufacturing is highly regulated, as is banking. Plenty of competition exists. In both, I have a very granular range of choices at different price points, and have no trouble finding ones I am happy with. Airlines generally have two tiers of service, and business/first does nothing for large parts of what makes the experience terrible. Or are you asking about less regulated industries, like hotels or restaurants? Or maybe things that are completely unregulated?
  - antisthenes 10y ago
    In this case, the service being offered by the airline is the booking itself. Your manufacturing analogy isn't appropriate, since they have to meet a minimum standard of safety for the product being sold. It is regulated heavily, because it deals with the potential loss of human life. What's more reliable - a flight that departs on time every time or the aircraft that performs the flight? (In case it isn't obvious, it's a rhetorical question) > as is banking Sure, if we're talking about the safety of putting your money in a CD, which offer no consumer utility whatsoever. It's actually not a service for the consumer, since the bank is the one that makes money on the deposit. A better analogy would have been different credit cards, which is quite a predatory service that, in theory, is possible to benefit from by the consumer, but in practice has little consumer protection if the "incentives" of the cards expire. What I was asking for, and sorry if the intent wasn't clear, were products and services without consumer protection that offer surplus utility to the consumer beyond the service itself, that aren't terrible. If you have a rudimentary knowledge of economics, you'll know it's a trick question, though.
    - tyingq 10y ago
      I feel like some goalposts just moved. Cars can be safe, but still crappy. Only part of their function is regulated. Similar for banks. My bank provides great online functionality, friendly service, and more they aren't obligated to do.
jstandard 10y ago
You have the option of paying more for a less terrible experience. Pricing is also customizable, allowing you to target the exact part of the experience you find terrible.
- tyingq 10y ago
  There's really only two tiers, and the price jump is crazy. And does nothing for large parts of the bad experience.
  - jstandard 10y ago
    I disagree, the flying experience is much more segmented than 2 tiers in the US. Each airline has an a la carte menu of experience configurations. More legroom? Premium Economy (or business/first class) Aisle seat? Pay for seat selection. Slow boarding? Pay for priority. No food? Onboard purchases. Security line too long? TSA Precheck. Long lines at immigration? Global Entry. Whether you're willing to purchase these upgrades is a personal decision, the options are there. In your original post you commented about the pricing "race to the bottom" and the "unbundling of baggage fees". Unbundling means more granular pricing segmentation to attract a higher volume of customers.
    - tyingq 10y ago
      Of course, I'm aware of these things, but I still stick to the 2 tiers of service. The unbundling doesn't really create a new tier of service, it's just poor customer service. Hotels could charge extra for pillows. And TSA precheck and Global entry are not airline offered services. Paying for an aisle seat is a thing only because seat pitch has been squeezed over the years to where a middle seat sucks.

dang 10y ago

> Isn't that what most of HN is so Such perceptions are common but usually in the eye of the beholder. HN is divided about such things.