7 ms·

I agree and the author fails to mention the tradeoff between ram/diskspace and development time. >>all you web devs: Go learn C or Rust or something. Your prog

by mentos 10y ago

I agree and the author fails to mention the tradeoff between ram/diskspace and development time. >>all you web devs: Go learn C or Rust or something. Your program runs on a computer. I don't think that is a realistic request. When the cost of Slack's ram/diskspace usage starts affecting their profit then they can/will take steps to re-write the application in 'native' code. Until then its premature optimization?

fauigerzigerk 10y ago
Premature optimization used to mean optimizing something that doesn't cause any noticeable performance degradation. I think it's a mistake to redefine it as optimization that doesn't affect profits. Companies often get away with painfully broken software for a long time because they benefit from some other moat (e.g banks). But they're setting themselves up for disruption by doing that. Also, profits are not the only purpose in life if you value your craft. (I'm not denying that you have to be able to afford high standards and economics does play a legitimate role)
overgard 10y ago
C is not that hard! If you're a programmer, and you don't know C, you're not good at your craft. I realize that sounds incredibly harsh but it's true: your job is to make a computer do a task efficiently. If you can't even read the language that makes that possible, you don't know what you're doing.
- cr0sh 10y ago
  I could re-write your argument by replacing "C" with "x86 assembler" - but I won't. However, the argument could still stand, but I'd hesitate at saying it's a wholly valid argument. My own prejudice aside - I honestly do think that if you don't have an understanding of how a CPU works at this very low level - maybe even lower - you don't know what you're doing; that, and I have done hand-assembled x86, 6502, and 6809 code in the past... It's a different time; knowledge of lower level languages isn't needed today to be a successful software developer who knows their craft. And I recognize my prejudices as such, thus while I tell them, I understand that they really can't apply. Would I like it if these new guys all knew this kind of stuff? Well - yeah; but the same could be said of me by guys long gone and dead as to why I don't know how to wire up an analogue computer to solve a calculus problem, or why I can't wire up a plugboard to compute something on a IBM 401 or such. That doesn't make them a better developer, nor me or anyone else a worse one. We're just using different technologies. That said, I do think developers should branch out, and at least have an understanding of other languages; maybe C/C++ - but even Java, Python, GoLang, Rust, etc - all could be just as useful to know. Today - career-wise - I am a javascript/node.js developer - before that, I mainly used PHP. At home, I play with Perl, C/C++, and Python (these latter two more recently being involved in machine learning, TensorFlow, and Keras). Occasionally, I'll get a bit nostalgic and break out BASIC (my favorite today is QB64). Can't say I've done any recent assembler coding - but it doesn't scare me, either. Just another way of communicating with the machine.
  - overgard 10y ago
    I get that everyone has their specialty -- Im not trying to imply that someone that writes javascript for a living is a lesser coder or everything should be native. My point is that there are fundamentals to this craft, and all these web developers acting like C is exotic knowledge baffles me. With regard to your first point though, I actually do think knowing some form of assembly is also super useful. I just tend to focus on C since as is well known, its basically portable assembly.
- ue_ 10y ago
  >If you're a programmer, and you don't know C, you're not good at your craft. Even as someone myself who knows (more or less) C, this is quite an elitist statement, and doesn't do justice to say, Lisp and people who use functional languages. The goal of programming isn't necessarily efficiency.
  - overgard 10y ago
    How is expecting competency elitist? Theres plenty of free resources to learn C. I learned C when I was 14. Im not trying to claim low level knowledge of the machine is inherently better than high level knowlege. What I am claiming is you need both and knowing how this stuff works isnt a charming novelty reserved for the curious
Karrot_Kream 10y ago
> I don't think that is a realistic request. Hm? How come? Is there a mental barrier here that I'm not understanding? (C and Rust are "hard" languages?) I taught myself to code on my parents' hand-me-down Pentium 100Mhz in the early 2000s, and I started with the K&R C book. Python and C were my swiss army knives at the time. I really can't see this stuff being super difficult, I mean I was a teenager and I had no understanding of algorithms.

by mentos 10y ago

fauigerzigerk 10y ago

Premature optimization used to mean optimizing something that doesn't cause any noticeable performance degradation. I think it's a mistake to redefine it as optimization that doesn't affect profits. Companies often get away with painfully broken software for a long time because they benefit from some other moat (e.g banks). But they're setting themselves up for disruption by doing that. Also, profits are not the only purpose in life if you value your craft. (I'm not denying that you have to be able to afford high standards and economics does play a legitimate role)

overgard 10y ago

C is not that hard! If you're a programmer, and you don't know C, you're not good at your craft. I realize that sounds incredibly harsh but it's true: your job is to make a computer do a task efficiently. If you can't even read the language that makes that possible, you don't know what you're doing.

cr0sh 10y ago
I could re-write your argument by replacing "C" with "x86 assembler" - but I won't. However, the argument could still stand, but I'd hesitate at saying it's a wholly valid argument. My own prejudice aside - I honestly do think that if you don't have an understanding of how a CPU works at this very low level - maybe even lower - you don't know what you're doing; that, and I have done hand-assembled x86, 6502, and 6809 code in the past... It's a different time; knowledge of lower level languages isn't needed today to be a successful software developer who knows their craft. And I recognize my prejudices as such, thus while I tell them, I understand that they really can't apply. Would I like it if these new guys all knew this kind of stuff? Well - yeah; but the same could be said of me by guys long gone and dead as to why I don't know how to wire up an analogue computer to solve a calculus problem, or why I can't wire up a plugboard to compute something on a IBM 401 or such. That doesn't make them a better developer, nor me or anyone else a worse one. We're just using different technologies. That said, I do think developers should branch out, and at least have an understanding of other languages; maybe C/C++ - but even Java, Python, GoLang, Rust, etc - all could be just as useful to know. Today - career-wise - I am a javascript/node.js developer - before that, I mainly used PHP. At home, I play with Perl, C/C++, and Python (these latter two more recently being involved in machine learning, TensorFlow, and Keras). Occasionally, I'll get a bit nostalgic and break out BASIC (my favorite today is QB64). Can't say I've done any recent assembler coding - but it doesn't scare me, either. Just another way of communicating with the machine.
- overgard 10y ago
  I get that everyone has their specialty -- Im not trying to imply that someone that writes javascript for a living is a lesser coder or everything should be native. My point is that there are fundamentals to this craft, and all these web developers acting like C is exotic knowledge baffles me. With regard to your first point though, I actually do think knowing some form of assembly is also super useful. I just tend to focus on C since as is well known, its basically portable assembly.
ue_ 10y ago
>If you're a programmer, and you don't know C, you're not good at your craft. Even as someone myself who knows (more or less) C, this is quite an elitist statement, and doesn't do justice to say, Lisp and people who use functional languages. The goal of programming isn't necessarily efficiency.
- overgard 10y ago
  How is expecting competency elitist? Theres plenty of free resources to learn C. I learned C when I was 14. Im not trying to claim low level knowledge of the machine is inherently better than high level knowlege. What I am claiming is you need both and knowing how this stuff works isnt a charming novelty reserved for the curious

Karrot_Kream 10y ago

> I don't think that is a realistic request. Hm? How come? Is there a mental barrier here that I'm not understanding? (C and Rust are "hard" languages?) I taught myself to code on my parents' hand-me-down Pentium 100Mhz in the early 2000s, and I started with the K&R C book. Python and C were my swiss army knives at the time. I really can't see this stuff being super difficult, I mean I was a teenager and I had no understanding of algorithms.