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> The underlying issue here is that Electron reduces the barrier to entry for cross-platform development. It's very far-fetched to call a lower barrier to entr

> The underlying issue here is that Electron reduces the barrier to entry for cross-platform development. It's very far-fetched to call a lower barrier to entry an issue. The easier we can make it for people to get started, the better, isn't it?

matthewmacleod 10y ago
Point taken – 'issue' is not the correct term here. Perhaps 'cause' is better. Lowering the barrier to entry is great, I agree. It's awesome that Electron and web technologies can be used to quickly launch proof-of-concept desktop apps. I find it significantly less awesome that companies with hundreds or thousands of engineers continue to use it after the concept has been proven, however!
- cr0sh 10y ago
  But these apps aren't "proof-of-concept" apps - they are fully functioning, working cross-platform applications. So are you saying that these companies which have implemented these apps should instead say "You know what, we have this app developed, and working on the major platforms - but let's instead devote three new teams, one each for Windows, Mac, and Linux - to re-implement this app natively! I'm sure upper management will agree!" That's not going to work. That's going to be shot down and laughed at. No company is going to re-implement a working cross-platform application over to three separate native contexts, and maintain all three. That just won't happen. It works already. The users probably like it just fine. What benefit to the company will this get them? Nothing - just more costs for maintenance across three platforms. If native is wanted by the users, likely what would happen - if it happens at all - will be the company says "Ok - we'll make it native for Windows, maybe even Mac - maybe. Linux? Forget it!" It's not the developers. Developers would love to make native apps, for all the platforms. But developers are limited by the companies they work for, and by the economic realities that all the platforms can't be supported natively; at most, only one or two can - because at that point, with the number of users on those platforms, the additional costs of maintenance and support are pretty much saturated. Adding additional native platforms doesn't just add onto those costs, it actually (in theory) multiply them - because a single person might use the application across multiple platforms. So if they have problems on two or three different native platforms, now there are three different support issues (needing more people to support) - instead of a single complaint for a single platform. I get it, though - it would be great if these apps were native, and worked on every platform, from now and into the future (even on platforms that don't exist yet!). That's just not going to happen; if native is wanted, then only the most widely used platforms will be supported, and even then, one of those will likely be dropped, and it won't be the one from Redmond. So - what can be done? I dunno. The concept the author brings up ("use React Native") might be the solution. Or some other interface that abstracts a platform's OS and other native functionality out to an API that is the same for all platforms. But now you have issues with security and other access - which you still have with Electron, but it is more contained and constrained, since it has to go thru the Chrome engine and the various rules/settings browsers have for sandboxing bad actors. Or - you leave it to the user and their operating system (and slim it all down - maybe that's what React Native does; I don't know, I've never used it). Or - you (that is, the company) just says "Sure - we'll do a native only implementation - for Windows only." - because that's how it usually goes.
  - LeoNatan25 10y ago
    > It's not the developers. Developers would love to make native apps, for all the platforms. I don't think that's true in the case of Slack. They only have JS "hacker" webdevs, and those are notoriously resistant to any change to their comfort zone. C++? WPF? Swift? Cocoa? Scary stuff.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
pikzen 10y ago
"the easier we can make it for electricians to wire up my house, the better, isn't it?" Unfortunately, no. Just as a trained electrician will wire up your house so as to not set it on fire as soon as you turn on a lamp, a trained developer will make apps that use a minimal amount of resources. Especially more hilarious if someone writing Electron apps call him/herself an engineer.
- positivecomment 10y ago
  I write Electron apps and call myself an engineer, because I am an engineer. Could you please explain why am I being hilarious?
  - pikzen 10y ago
    Have you been trained as an engineer, in a country where "engineer" is a very specific thing and is held to higher expectations, including the possibility of having your title taken away by your peers if you do not respect your duty to, first and foremost, your users and/or society, like every country that takes the title of engineer seriously? If yes, what in earth makes you think writing Electron apps is a good idea? If no, back to my point. To quickly answer JetJaguar below you, yes, I am an utter cunt, but being called a typical hackernews one hurts, considering how I can't stand most HNers.
    - wishinghand 10y ago
      > Have you been trained as an engineer, in a country where "engineer" is a very specific thing and is held to higher expectations, including the possibility of having your title taken away by your peers if you do not respect your duty to, first and foremost, your users and/or society, like every country that takes the title of engineer seriously? No country trains software engineers in the way you describe.
      - ballenf 10y ago
        I think Germany was the country described in the post. Whether it's true to the fullest extent is hard to say, but having worked and socialized with them for years it seems mostly true. Engineering is the country's actual official religion. And I mean that as the highest compliment. (No offense to any other country's engineers -- the engineer mindset is the same everywhere, but the mindset of the non-engineer in other countries is the distinction. That is, Germany grants engineers a degree of respect, almost reverence, that I've never seen in the US.)
fsloth 10y ago
"The easier we can make it for people to get started, the better, isn't it?" Would you like to use an application that would not have been written without a low barrier of entry? Powerfull and easy tools are not necessarily the same thing.

matthewmacleod 10y ago

Point taken – 'issue' is not the correct term here. Perhaps 'cause' is better. Lowering the barrier to entry is great, I agree. It's awesome that Electron and web technologies can be used to quickly launch proof-of-concept desktop apps. I find it significantly less awesome that companies with hundreds or thousands of engineers continue to use it after the concept has been proven, however!

cr0sh 10y ago
But these apps aren't "proof-of-concept" apps - they are fully functioning, working cross-platform applications. So are you saying that these companies which have implemented these apps should instead say "You know what, we have this app developed, and working on the major platforms - but let's instead devote three new teams, one each for Windows, Mac, and Linux - to re-implement this app natively! I'm sure upper management will agree!" That's not going to work. That's going to be shot down and laughed at. No company is going to re-implement a working cross-platform application over to three separate native contexts, and maintain all three. That just won't happen. It works already. The users probably like it just fine. What benefit to the company will this get them? Nothing - just more costs for maintenance across three platforms. If native is wanted by the users, likely what would happen - if it happens at all - will be the company says "Ok - we'll make it native for Windows, maybe even Mac - maybe. Linux? Forget it!" It's not the developers. Developers would love to make native apps, for all the platforms. But developers are limited by the companies they work for, and by the economic realities that all the platforms can't be supported natively; at most, only one or two can - because at that point, with the number of users on those platforms, the additional costs of maintenance and support are pretty much saturated. Adding additional native platforms doesn't just add onto those costs, it actually (in theory) multiply them - because a single person might use the application across multiple platforms. So if they have problems on two or three different native platforms, now there are three different support issues (needing more people to support) - instead of a single complaint for a single platform. I get it, though - it would be great if these apps were native, and worked on every platform, from now and into the future (even on platforms that don't exist yet!). That's just not going to happen; if native is wanted, then only the most widely used platforms will be supported, and even then, one of those will likely be dropped, and it won't be the one from Redmond. So - what can be done? I dunno. The concept the author brings up ("use React Native") might be the solution. Or some other interface that abstracts a platform's OS and other native functionality out to an API that is the same for all platforms. But now you have issues with security and other access - which you still have with Electron, but it is more contained and constrained, since it has to go thru the Chrome engine and the various rules/settings browsers have for sandboxing bad actors. Or - you leave it to the user and their operating system (and slim it all down - maybe that's what React Native does; I don't know, I've never used it). Or - you (that is, the company) just says "Sure - we'll do a native only implementation - for Windows only." - because that's how it usually goes.
- LeoNatan25 10y ago
  > It's not the developers. Developers would love to make native apps, for all the platforms. I don't think that's true in the case of Slack. They only have JS "hacker" webdevs, and those are notoriously resistant to any change to their comfort zone. C++? WPF? Swift? Cocoa? Scary stuff.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]

pikzen 10y ago

"the easier we can make it for electricians to wire up my house, the better, isn't it?" Unfortunately, no. Just as a trained electrician will wire up your house so as to not set it on fire as soon as you turn on a lamp, a trained developer will make apps that use a minimal amount of resources. Especially more hilarious if someone writing Electron apps call him/herself an engineer.

positivecomment 10y ago
I write Electron apps and call myself an engineer, because I am an engineer. Could you please explain why am I being hilarious?
- pikzen 10y ago
  Have you been trained as an engineer, in a country where "engineer" is a very specific thing and is held to higher expectations, including the possibility of having your title taken away by your peers if you do not respect your duty to, first and foremost, your users and/or society, like every country that takes the title of engineer seriously? If yes, what in earth makes you think writing Electron apps is a good idea? If no, back to my point. To quickly answer JetJaguar below you, yes, I am an utter cunt, but being called a typical hackernews one hurts, considering how I can't stand most HNers.
  - wishinghand 10y ago
    > Have you been trained as an engineer, in a country where "engineer" is a very specific thing and is held to higher expectations, including the possibility of having your title taken away by your peers if you do not respect your duty to, first and foremost, your users and/or society, like every country that takes the title of engineer seriously? No country trains software engineers in the way you describe.
    - ballenf 10y ago
      I think Germany was the country described in the post. Whether it's true to the fullest extent is hard to say, but having worked and socialized with them for years it seems mostly true. Engineering is the country's actual official religion. And I mean that as the highest compliment. (No offense to any other country's engineers -- the engineer mindset is the same everywhere, but the mindset of the non-engineer in other countries is the distinction. That is, Germany grants engineers a degree of respect, almost reverence, that I've never seen in the US.)

fsloth 10y ago

"The easier we can make it for people to get started, the better, isn't it?" Would you like to use an application that would not have been written without a low barrier of entry? Powerfull and easy tools are not necessarily the same thing.