8 ms·

> They fail to integrate with the host platform Just as a counter-point, because native app fans often make this point as though it is universally recognized t

by Touche 10y ago

> They fail to integrate with the host platform Just as a counter-point, because native app fans often make this point as though it is universally recognized to be a good thing. I don't want apps to integrate with the host platform. The host platform is not the thing I care about. I use several host platforms in different contexts (I have work and home computers and a smartphone, they all run different OSes) and I would prefer that Slack look like Slack and not have buttons in different places with different UI interactions just because that's the way Reminders.app works. For me, the web is the host platform I care about. It's the one that I can use anywhere and only have to remember the URL.

matthewmacleod 10y ago
I accept that not everybody will feel the same way – I do care about my local platform. I want to hit 'space' when I have an item selected and see quick preview. I want my documents indexed in Spotlight, I want to drag-and-drop files between applications, and I want all the rest of the UI niceties I am used to.
- krallja 10y ago
  And on Windows, I want pressing Alt to highlight the first menu, and the arrow keys to move between and around menus.
atombender 10y ago
I doubt you don't care. These are examples "integration with the host platform": * Text selection * Caret behaviour (e.g. Option-arrows on macOS) * Clipboard * Spell check * Open/save dialogs * File system access * Drag/drop * Window management * Accessibility (screen reader support etc.) * Standard right click menus * Indexing (e.g. Spotlight on macOS) * etc. You may be thinking to native UI idioms, which even Apple threw out the window several years ago. Electron apps are mostly very good at the things in the above list, because the Chromium web renderer has spent years abstracting the mechanisms needed to feel native where it matters. Non-native toolkits such as Swing and Qt also spent years trying to achieve native look/feel, mostly through emulation and host OS detection, and they still feel pretty crappy compared to Electron apps. Slack, Spotify and friends do a good job of inventing their own "web but native-feeling" UI. An example of the exact opposite is Google Docs, which still, for all its technological impressiveness, feels like a crummy Swing app trapped in a web page. For example, Google Docs renders its own right-click context menus, which look and feel nothing like native context menus. Google Docs' mini-apps also have a menu bar and a toolbar, but it's part of the host window, so you get two levels of menu bars and tool bars.
- Touche 10y ago
  No, I don't care about most of those things. I don't know why you didn't believe me when I wrote it the first time :). "Caret behavior", I use a Mac 8 hours a day and I have no idea what option-arrow does. That clipboard shortcuts work the same is the only one that I'm used to enough to be annoyed if it were done differently. There's something about Mac fans that are very preoccupied with all of the details of how Macs work. I'm not criticizing that, you like what you like, but you shouldn't be surprised that I don't care about Spotlight indexing.
  - lobster_johnson 10y ago
    You don't select or navigate in text? Shift+arrows — select characters Option+arrows — jump between words or paragraphs Cmd+arrows — jump to beginning/end of line or text Shift+Option+arrows — select words or paragraphs Option+Backspace — delete one word back Cmd+A — select all I actually used all of these except the last one while writing and formatting this comment! Plus clipboard shortcuts. If you use vim in a terminal 100% of the time, none of those will matter to you because vim invents its own keyboard universe. But if you don't, I don't understand how you can have this opinion. I get super annoyed with anything that somehow overrides these standard keyboard shortcuts, which is suprisingly often. Non-native UIs typically have to reimplement them because modern OSes have made the curious choice of not abstracting them. I don't think it is a "Mac fans" thing. The exact same principles apply to Windows. Even to Linux, although the keyboard standardization there is next to non-existent. (I don't use Linux desktops often, but when I do, I get really frustrated that the terminals use Ctrl as a meta key instead of Command. So "copy" isn't Cmd+C, it's something like Ctrl+Alt+C.)
    - Touche 10y ago
      I use Cmd+A, that's it. It has a close corollary on every OS. > If you use vim in a terminal 100% of the time, none of those will matter to you because vim invents its own keyboard universe. I do, and this is one of the reasons I've never bothered with all of the details and shortcuts that you like. Vim attempts to make the best possible text editor. It doesn't let "OS conventions" dictate what makes good text editing experience. What you get from apps staying to strict OS guidelines is a bunch of average -- not terrible but not inspiring -- applications.
jernfrost 10y ago
1) Why use several host platforms if the platform makes no difference to you? 2) If you know a platform then you should have no problems knowing how to use it. It would be ridiculous to have an app from Windows behave exactly the same in Mac OS just because you don't want to remember the difference. You don't want minimize and maximize buttons put on the opposite side of all other mac apps because that is how it is on windows. You don't want copy paste in Slack to use Ctrl rather than command key because that is what you do on Windows. 3) Whatever time you save from doing everything the same across platforms would be wasted, for anybody not working cross platform who suddenly have to deal with an app with completely non-standard alien behavior. I want my standard mac hot keys to work in a mac app. I want preferences to be in the standard location. I want my color and font selectors to work the way they work all other places. I want drag and drop to work like in all other Mac apps. We Mac users have seen this again and again. When companies don't give a shit about our platform, it is usually just a question of time before a competitor arrives which does, and knocks the other guy out. You don't survive that long ignoring the platform unless you got some lock-in advantage. Why else do you think people make a big point of an app being native Cocoa? It is because they know it sells better, because they know customers want the native well integrated experience.
- Touche 10y ago
  > 1) Why use several host platforms if the platform makes no difference to you? I don't, I use The Web for 90% of all things I use on a computer. A Chromebook is one of the computers I use the most when not working for precisely this reason. > Why else do you think people make a big point of an app being native Cocoa? It is because they know it sells better, because they know customers want the native well integrated experience. I think you're mistaken, the fact that so many company are switching to Electron is evidence that it doesn't sell better.
  - chipotle_coyote 10y ago
    I think you're mistaken, the fact that so many company are switching to Electron is evidence that it doesn't sell better. Hold on a bit with that assertion. First: which apps built on Electron are being sold, period? All the ones I'm aware of are open source, like Atom, or front ends to services, like Slack. Second: which companies are switching to Electron for development? Again, all the Electron apps I'm familiar with are ones that started out that way. While I'm sure there's probably an app or two out there that began as a native client and then went to "let's just be a web wrapper," I don't know of any big ones offhand. (I've come across companies that have shifted their strategy to using true native applications, however. Facebook famously shifted their mobile strategy from HTML5/JS to native apps some years back, and I know of several iOS apps that were using "write everything in JS, it'll be great!" toolkits that switched to actual native AppKit.) Third, and admittedly anecdotally, in both my experience and what I've consistently heard and read from people who've had the opportunity to study the UX of both native and "wrapped web" apps, just because users don't use the language of developers doesn't mean they don't notice when apps are slow, resource-hoggy, and behave kinda weirdly compared to other apps. I run a Slack for a writing group that's mostly populated by non-technical people and it is not uncommon for users to complain about Slack "slowing down their machine." Just because people don't know the term "native app" doesn't mean they aren't going to be able to tell "this app over here is nicer to use than that app over there," and that might be because "that app over there" doesn't minimize properly, or has weird menus that put common things in uncommon places, or doesn't do what they expect when they right-click on selected objects.

by Touche 10y ago

matthewmacleod 10y ago

I accept that not everybody will feel the same way – I do care about my local platform. I want to hit 'space' when I have an item selected and see quick preview. I want my documents indexed in Spotlight, I want to drag-and-drop files between applications, and I want all the rest of the UI niceties I am used to.

krallja 10y ago
And on Windows, I want pressing Alt to highlight the first menu, and the arrow keys to move between and around menus.

atombender 10y ago

I doubt you don't care. These are examples "integration with the host platform": * Text selection * Caret behaviour (e.g. Option-arrows on macOS) * Clipboard * Spell check * Open/save dialogs * File system access * Drag/drop * Window management * Accessibility (screen reader support etc.) * Standard right click menus * Indexing (e.g. Spotlight on macOS) * etc. You may be thinking to native UI idioms, which even Apple threw out the window several years ago. Electron apps are mostly very good at the things in the above list, because the Chromium web renderer has spent years abstracting the mechanisms needed to feel native where it matters. Non-native toolkits such as Swing and Qt also spent years trying to achieve native look/feel, mostly through emulation and host OS detection, and they still feel pretty crappy compared to Electron apps. Slack, Spotify and friends do a good job of inventing their own "web but native-feeling" UI. An example of the exact opposite is Google Docs, which still, for all its technological impressiveness, feels like a crummy Swing app trapped in a web page. For example, Google Docs renders its own right-click context menus, which look and feel nothing like native context menus. Google Docs' mini-apps also have a menu bar and a toolbar, but it's part of the host window, so you get two levels of menu bars and tool bars.

Touche 10y ago
No, I don't care about most of those things. I don't know why you didn't believe me when I wrote it the first time :). "Caret behavior", I use a Mac 8 hours a day and I have no idea what option-arrow does. That clipboard shortcuts work the same is the only one that I'm used to enough to be annoyed if it were done differently. There's something about Mac fans that are very preoccupied with all of the details of how Macs work. I'm not criticizing that, you like what you like, but you shouldn't be surprised that I don't care about Spotlight indexing.
- lobster_johnson 10y ago
  You don't select or navigate in text? Shift+arrows — select characters Option+arrows — jump between words or paragraphs Cmd+arrows — jump to beginning/end of line or text Shift+Option+arrows — select words or paragraphs Option+Backspace — delete one word back Cmd+A — select all I actually used all of these except the last one while writing and formatting this comment! Plus clipboard shortcuts. If you use vim in a terminal 100% of the time, none of those will matter to you because vim invents its own keyboard universe. But if you don't, I don't understand how you can have this opinion. I get super annoyed with anything that somehow overrides these standard keyboard shortcuts, which is suprisingly often. Non-native UIs typically have to reimplement them because modern OSes have made the curious choice of not abstracting them. I don't think it is a "Mac fans" thing. The exact same principles apply to Windows. Even to Linux, although the keyboard standardization there is next to non-existent. (I don't use Linux desktops often, but when I do, I get really frustrated that the terminals use Ctrl as a meta key instead of Command. So "copy" isn't Cmd+C, it's something like Ctrl+Alt+C.)
  - Touche 10y ago
    I use Cmd+A, that's it. It has a close corollary on every OS. > If you use vim in a terminal 100% of the time, none of those will matter to you because vim invents its own keyboard universe. I do, and this is one of the reasons I've never bothered with all of the details and shortcuts that you like. Vim attempts to make the best possible text editor. It doesn't let "OS conventions" dictate what makes good text editing experience. What you get from apps staying to strict OS guidelines is a bunch of average -- not terrible but not inspiring -- applications.

jernfrost 10y ago

1) Why use several host platforms if the platform makes no difference to you? 2) If you know a platform then you should have no problems knowing how to use it. It would be ridiculous to have an app from Windows behave exactly the same in Mac OS just because you don't want to remember the difference. You don't want minimize and maximize buttons put on the opposite side of all other mac apps because that is how it is on windows. You don't want copy paste in Slack to use Ctrl rather than command key because that is what you do on Windows. 3) Whatever time you save from doing everything the same across platforms would be wasted, for anybody not working cross platform who suddenly have to deal with an app with completely non-standard alien behavior. I want my standard mac hot keys to work in a mac app. I want preferences to be in the standard location. I want my color and font selectors to work the way they work all other places. I want drag and drop to work like in all other Mac apps. We Mac users have seen this again and again. When companies don't give a shit about our platform, it is usually just a question of time before a competitor arrives which does, and knocks the other guy out. You don't survive that long ignoring the platform unless you got some lock-in advantage. Why else do you think people make a big point of an app being native Cocoa? It is because they know it sells better, because they know customers want the native well integrated experience.

Touche 10y ago
> 1) Why use several host platforms if the platform makes no difference to you? I don't, I use The Web for 90% of all things I use on a computer. A Chromebook is one of the computers I use the most when not working for precisely this reason. > Why else do you think people make a big point of an app being native Cocoa? It is because they know it sells better, because they know customers want the native well integrated experience. I think you're mistaken, the fact that so many company are switching to Electron is evidence that it doesn't sell better.
- chipotle_coyote 10y ago
  I think you're mistaken, the fact that so many company are switching to Electron is evidence that it doesn't sell better. Hold on a bit with that assertion. First: which apps built on Electron are being sold, period? All the ones I'm aware of are open source, like Atom, or front ends to services, like Slack. Second: which companies are switching to Electron for development? Again, all the Electron apps I'm familiar with are ones that started out that way. While I'm sure there's probably an app or two out there that began as a native client and then went to "let's just be a web wrapper," I don't know of any big ones offhand. (I've come across companies that have shifted their strategy to using true native applications, however. Facebook famously shifted their mobile strategy from HTML5/JS to native apps some years back, and I know of several iOS apps that were using "write everything in JS, it'll be great!" toolkits that switched to actual native AppKit.) Third, and admittedly anecdotally, in both my experience and what I've consistently heard and read from people who've had the opportunity to study the UX of both native and "wrapped web" apps, just because users don't use the language of developers doesn't mean they don't notice when apps are slow, resource-hoggy, and behave kinda weirdly compared to other apps. I run a Slack for a writing group that's mostly populated by non-technical people and it is not uncommon for users to complain about Slack "slowing down their machine." Just because people don't know the term "native app" doesn't mean they aren't going to be able to tell "this app over here is nicer to use than that app over there," and that might be because "that app over there" doesn't minimize properly, or has weird menus that put common things in uncommon places, or doesn't do what they expect when they right-click on selected objects.