3 ms·

Development performance is arguably more important. Developers are way more expensive than servers. You shrug off the established players but all else is very

Development performance is arguably more important. Developers are way more expensive than servers. You shrug off the established players but all else is very much not equal. Until Go has its own mature Django or WordPress projects, you're spending a lot more time reimplementing the wheel.

bhauer 10y ago
YMMV. In my experience, developers are equally productive (and in many cases, more productive) on high-performance platforms for a variety of reasons. These include the aforementioned reduced friction of avoiding subconscious performance debt, the increased productivity of a typing system (many high-performance platforms have stronger typing systems), and the reduced mental burden of a simplified system architecture. Yes, some platforms (e.g., WordPress) give you certain functionality off the shelf, but if your application isn't a CMS or blog, then the utility of that functionality is low. When building a custom REST or REST-like server for an application, a CMS platform isn't necessarily a reasonable starting point. As with anything in technology, many variables need to be evaluated to make a decision. My point here is that performance is a consideration—more significant and valuable than many people understand—and it at least somewhat objective. Developer productivity is more difficult to objectively measure and varies by team on matters such as previous experience.
marcus_holmes 10y ago
One of the main beautiful things about Golang is that the community prefers libraries to frameworks. There may well be a MVC framework developed in/for Golang, but it probably won't be used that much by Golang devs. A framework gets you going real quick, but at some point, probably 3-6 months in, you'll need to do something that the framework doesn't like. At that point the framework suddenly becomes a hindrance rather than a help. You spend more and more time fighting the framework and writing more and more code that lives outside the framework. After a few years you've wasted way more time than you ever gained from using the framework. Libraries are built to provide capabilities to your code. Until you've experienced a good standard library (like Golang's) then this makes no sense. It's common for newbies to Golang (like I did) to try and create supersets of the libraries and create their own framework. But every new project comes back to the simplicity and ease of using the standard library. I like the OP's approach of having repos full of useful middleware and handlers. This makes much, much more sense for Golang development than a Django clone. Try it, you'll like it.
- frik 10y ago
  PHP, Nodejs, Go are languages and have communities that prefer libraries (not exclusively). First it needs a language with batteries included, so the language offers already so many features out of the box. It's great not to have to worry about frameworks, that often last just for a few years, than you have to rewrite or migrate to a newer partly incompatible version.
- oliwarner 10y ago
  Your description of frameworks' opinions and limitations limiting development has just never —after years of development— really applied to Django. Much of it is configurable or even interchangeable, and it continues to receive serious improvements on a regular basis. The fact Django is batteries-included, and everything is well documented in a single place, developers aren't wasting time working out what they can or should use for URL routing or handling database connections. So no, I stick by my comment. A good framework saves time by being easier to learn, creating a more homogeneous product that is easier for other <framework>-developers to pick up, not forcing developers to form opinions about architecture they just need to work.

bhauer 10y ago

YMMV. In my experience, developers are equally productive (and in many cases, more productive) on high-performance platforms for a variety of reasons. These include the aforementioned reduced friction of avoiding subconscious performance debt, the increased productivity of a typing system (many high-performance platforms have stronger typing systems), and the reduced mental burden of a simplified system architecture. Yes, some platforms (e.g., WordPress) give you certain functionality off the shelf, but if your application isn't a CMS or blog, then the utility of that functionality is low. When building a custom REST or REST-like server for an application, a CMS platform isn't necessarily a reasonable starting point. As with anything in technology, many variables need to be evaluated to make a decision. My point here is that performance is a consideration—more significant and valuable than many people understand—and it at least somewhat objective. Developer productivity is more difficult to objectively measure and varies by team on matters such as previous experience.

marcus_holmes 10y ago

One of the main beautiful things about Golang is that the community prefers libraries to frameworks. There may well be a MVC framework developed in/for Golang, but it probably won't be used that much by Golang devs. A framework gets you going real quick, but at some point, probably 3-6 months in, you'll need to do something that the framework doesn't like. At that point the framework suddenly becomes a hindrance rather than a help. You spend more and more time fighting the framework and writing more and more code that lives outside the framework. After a few years you've wasted way more time than you ever gained from using the framework. Libraries are built to provide capabilities to your code. Until you've experienced a good standard library (like Golang's) then this makes no sense. It's common for newbies to Golang (like I did) to try and create supersets of the libraries and create their own framework. But every new project comes back to the simplicity and ease of using the standard library. I like the OP's approach of having repos full of useful middleware and handlers. This makes much, much more sense for Golang development than a Django clone. Try it, you'll like it.

frik 10y ago
PHP, Nodejs, Go are languages and have communities that prefer libraries (not exclusively). First it needs a language with batteries included, so the language offers already so many features out of the box. It's great not to have to worry about frameworks, that often last just for a few years, than you have to rewrite or migrate to a newer partly incompatible version.
oliwarner 10y ago
Your description of frameworks' opinions and limitations limiting development has just never —after years of development— really applied to Django. Much of it is configurable or even interchangeable, and it continues to receive serious improvements on a regular basis. The fact Django is batteries-included, and everything is well documented in a single place, developers aren't wasting time working out what they can or should use for URL routing or handling database connections. So no, I stick by my comment. A good framework saves time by being easier to learn, creating a more homogeneous product that is easier for other <framework>-developers to pick up, not forcing developers to form opinions about architecture they just need to work.