5 ms·

And here I am in Argentina; getting into a public university, without having to pay, take exams or even have a good GPA in High School. How expensive and compe

by dysoco 10y ago

And here I am in Argentina; getting into a public university, without having to pay, take exams or even have a good GPA in High School. How expensive and competitive education is in the USA seems so alien to me; I wonder if it's really worth it. The only apparent benefit is networking and I'd dare say that only matters in Finance/Law. Am I really that screwed if I want to work at Google/Amazon/Whatever and I haven't graduated from MIT or Stanford?

virmundi 10y ago
Kinda...if you have work experience from somewhere else you could get into Google. Amazon is a bit more open; you have to put up with their interview crap.
- oblio 10y ago
  Not really. If you're from a decent university in your country you can at least get an internship at Google. I've had quite a few colleagues in Romania that did that. Google, Facebook, Microsoft, etc.
  - virmundi 10y ago
    That is fair. From watching HN over the years, Google seems to prefer certain US colleges for new US grads. I myopically assumed a US-centric perspective in my comment. If you come from one of the large well respected programs like GA Tech, they'll look at you once they looked at the Stanford folk.
hrehhf 10y ago
No. There is something of an echo chamber on these subjects. Just learn and work hard.
GuiA 10y ago
> Am I really that screwed if I want to work at Google/Amazon/Whatever and I haven't graduated from MIT or Stanford? The vast majority of Google/Facebook/etc. employees aren't from MIT/Stanford/Harvard/Berkeley/etc. It's definitely much harder to get a job at these companies straight out of college if you didn't attend a big name university. 10 years later, it doesn't matter. I got my undergrad from an unknown French university, and went to grad school at a large US state university with no brand name recognition (as is the case for many, many immigrants). Recruiters from top tier companies ignored me out of grad school, but after a few startups/talks at major conferences/open source projects/etc., I now work at such a company (and now recruiters are very eager to get some of my time).
- artursapek 10y ago
  > 10 years later, it doesn't matter. Even a few years later, impressive work experience and open source projects should far outweigh what university you went to.
  - problems 10y ago
    But getting you in the door for that work experience is key. Co-op programs and such can really help with that, especially if you don't have a lot of job-finding experience.
    - Mandatum 10y ago
      You can bite the bullet and work-for-almost-free (intern) and have a side job to pay your rent for 6 months, after which you should be able to score a full-time junior role.
- diminoten 10y ago
  Man, I am jealous. I just don't see how anyone can get into the top software companies anymore without those super impressive credentials. To be honest, I saw your first sentence and my gut reaction was, "Uh, no!" but I am certain you know more about this topic than I would. It's just so very surprising.
- jd20 10y ago
  Honestly, I think the recruiting process at some of these big tech companies is as broken as the standardized tests like SAT. I was rejected from Google, fresh out of Harvard, I think because they didn't like my choice of major (I'd been programming since elementary school, so I wanted to broaden my interests when I got to college), or GPA (I spent more time on building my own stuff, than school work), and the recruiter also mentioned to me they much prefer pHD's than bachelors, so the bar was much higher as a result. Now, having been a hiring manager at one of the major tech companies, I've seen how arbitrary the process can be. At least the SAT you can study for and master, if you really want to get a perfect score... but when it comes to hiring, there's so many factors that are unpredictable and out of your control.
BeetleB 10y ago
>How expensive and competitive education is in the USA seems so alien to me Expensive: Yes. Competitive: Not really. In the state university I went to, if you could not get admission, you really did not deserve it. The SAT score required was fairly low. In fact, if your SAT score was just above the threshold of admission, chances are you'll flunk college anyway. Compared to some other countries in the world (Turkey, South Asia, etc), the competition is ridiculously low. I know many people in those countries who could easily score well in the SATs but still not be good enough to get admission into a decent public university.
- djtriptych 10y ago
  Any data on the correlation between SAT score and dropout rate?
  - BeetleB 10y ago
    Not really. Just me waving my cane around (i.e. anecdotal) :-) I think what I was trying to say was that getting around 1050 (out of 1600) is very easy as long as you are willing to study. If you do not have the discipline for 1050 (and it really requires very little discipline - most smart students will get a higher score without studying at all), then you likely will not have the discipline to self study in college.
    - khedoros1 10y ago
      I just looked at numbers from years close to mine (2003, but found 2004-2005 data). 1020 was the 50%ile score.
      - BeetleB 10y ago
        Well, OK. It doesn't negate my main point. If 50% can get into a state school, then it is not very competitive in the US. (BTW, I didn't mean to imply 1050 was my school's requirement. I just happen to know it was above the requirement as I knew several students who got in with scores around 1050...)
fhoffa 10y ago
Networking is not necessary for a software engineering job. The two main factors are: - can you code in a whiteboard to pass the interview? - are there visas available to get you to work in your country of choice? I studied in Chile, and worked there too (in several companies no one has heard of in the US). Six years ago Google interviewed me, and I've been working for them since. Google paid for all expenses to bring me from Chile to the US - and I'm not the only one. Now, having someone inside Google to refer you and endorse your hiring helps. If you don't know anyone - try open source. There are some awesome communities to join: - https://medium.com/google-cloud/analyzing-github-issues-and-comments-with-bigquery-c41410d3308 https://medium.com/google-cloud/analyzing-github-issues-and-...
zekevermillion 10y ago
There is naturally going to be competition as long as there are choices. That said, I do not think our system serves us well in the USA. It imposes a great deal of distortion on how young people choose to spend their time -- ie, on window dressing rather than meaningful pursuit. The marketing of elite higher ed also may lead some of us to take on more education-related debt than we should, which can be limiting of future choices in life!
ggambetta 10y ago
Hello from an Uruguayan who worked as a Software Engineer at Google Zürich. No, you're not screwed at all :)
revelation 10y ago
The corollary is that while public universities, certainly in Germany, will admit almost anyone regardless of grades or pre-admission exams, the introductory courses will drive 40-50% away within the first two terms of any STEM degree. There is no grading on a curve, no endless midterms to pass a course despite failing the final - most of the time a single 2h final exam will entirely determine your passing grade, and it's not uncommon to have 60% of a cohort fail. Fail the same course three times and you are out right there and then, permanently barred from continuing your studies for the same degree. It's like hiring based on bullshit (cough essays) or work samples.
khedoros1 10y ago
> The only apparent benefit is networking and I'd dare say that only matters in Finance/Law. I found it valuable to have a curated list of things to learn (both the class list, and the syllabus within each class), the opportunity to work together in person with other students studying the same thing, access to professors, and to live in an academically-focused community. I went to a well-regarded, but not top-tier, California State school. That school is currently accepting 4,500 new students every year out of a pool of 50,000 applications. A few years after I started working, I started being contacted by various famous companies. I'm more limited by not really wanting to move to Silicon Valley than I am by my choice of school. In my opinion, university helped direct my learning path, provided external incentives to learn things that I might've been reluctant to learn otherwise, provided a great learning environment, and put me in contact with people that I wouldn't have met and benefited from without being there. Having a degree from almost anywhere will make it easier to find a first job than trying to do it through self-study.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

by dysoco 10y ago

virmundi 10y ago

Kinda...if you have work experience from somewhere else you could get into Google. Amazon is a bit more open; you have to put up with their interview crap.

oblio 10y ago
Not really. If you're from a decent university in your country you can at least get an internship at Google. I've had quite a few colleagues in Romania that did that. Google, Facebook, Microsoft, etc.
- virmundi 10y ago
  That is fair. From watching HN over the years, Google seems to prefer certain US colleges for new US grads. I myopically assumed a US-centric perspective in my comment. If you come from one of the large well respected programs like GA Tech, they'll look at you once they looked at the Stanford folk.

hrehhf 10y ago

No. There is something of an echo chamber on these subjects. Just learn and work hard.

GuiA 10y ago

> Am I really that screwed if I want to work at Google/Amazon/Whatever and I haven't graduated from MIT or Stanford? The vast majority of Google/Facebook/etc. employees aren't from MIT/Stanford/Harvard/Berkeley/etc. It's definitely much harder to get a job at these companies straight out of college if you didn't attend a big name university. 10 years later, it doesn't matter. I got my undergrad from an unknown French university, and went to grad school at a large US state university with no brand name recognition (as is the case for many, many immigrants). Recruiters from top tier companies ignored me out of grad school, but after a few startups/talks at major conferences/open source projects/etc., I now work at such a company (and now recruiters are very eager to get some of my time).

artursapek 10y ago
> 10 years later, it doesn't matter. Even a few years later, impressive work experience and open source projects should far outweigh what university you went to.
- problems 10y ago
  But getting you in the door for that work experience is key. Co-op programs and such can really help with that, especially if you don't have a lot of job-finding experience.
  - Mandatum 10y ago
    You can bite the bullet and work-for-almost-free (intern) and have a side job to pay your rent for 6 months, after which you should be able to score a full-time junior role.
diminoten 10y ago
Man, I am jealous. I just don't see how anyone can get into the top software companies anymore without those super impressive credentials. To be honest, I saw your first sentence and my gut reaction was, "Uh, no!" but I am certain you know more about this topic than I would. It's just so very surprising.
jd20 10y ago
Honestly, I think the recruiting process at some of these big tech companies is as broken as the standardized tests like SAT. I was rejected from Google, fresh out of Harvard, I think because they didn't like my choice of major (I'd been programming since elementary school, so I wanted to broaden my interests when I got to college), or GPA (I spent more time on building my own stuff, than school work), and the recruiter also mentioned to me they much prefer pHD's than bachelors, so the bar was much higher as a result. Now, having been a hiring manager at one of the major tech companies, I've seen how arbitrary the process can be. At least the SAT you can study for and master, if you really want to get a perfect score... but when it comes to hiring, there's so many factors that are unpredictable and out of your control.

BeetleB 10y ago

>How expensive and competitive education is in the USA seems so alien to me Expensive: Yes. Competitive: Not really. In the state university I went to, if you could not get admission, you really did not deserve it. The SAT score required was fairly low. In fact, if your SAT score was just above the threshold of admission, chances are you'll flunk college anyway. Compared to some other countries in the world (Turkey, South Asia, etc), the competition is ridiculously low. I know many people in those countries who could easily score well in the SATs but still not be good enough to get admission into a decent public university.

djtriptych 10y ago
Any data on the correlation between SAT score and dropout rate?
- BeetleB 10y ago
  Not really. Just me waving my cane around (i.e. anecdotal) :-) I think what I was trying to say was that getting around 1050 (out of 1600) is very easy as long as you are willing to study. If you do not have the discipline for 1050 (and it really requires very little discipline - most smart students will get a higher score without studying at all), then you likely will not have the discipline to self study in college.
  - khedoros1 10y ago
    I just looked at numbers from years close to mine (2003, but found 2004-2005 data). 1020 was the 50%ile score.
    - BeetleB 10y ago
      Well, OK. It doesn't negate my main point. If 50% can get into a state school, then it is not very competitive in the US. (BTW, I didn't mean to imply 1050 was my school's requirement. I just happen to know it was above the requirement as I knew several students who got in with scores around 1050...)

fhoffa 10y ago

Networking is not necessary for a software engineering job. The two main factors are: - can you code in a whiteboard to pass the interview? - are there visas available to get you to work in your country of choice? I studied in Chile, and worked there too (in several companies no one has heard of in the US). Six years ago Google interviewed me, and I've been working for them since. Google paid for all expenses to bring me from Chile to the US - and I'm not the only one. Now, having someone inside Google to refer you and endorse your hiring helps. If you don't know anyone - try open source. There are some awesome communities to join: - https://medium.com/google-cloud/analyzing-github-issues-and-comments-with-bigquery-c41410d3308 https://medium.com/google-cloud/analyzing-github-issues-and-...

zekevermillion 10y ago

There is naturally going to be competition as long as there are choices. That said, I do not think our system serves us well in the USA. It imposes a great deal of distortion on how young people choose to spend their time -- ie, on window dressing rather than meaningful pursuit. The marketing of elite higher ed also may lead some of us to take on more education-related debt than we should, which can be limiting of future choices in life!

ggambetta 10y ago

Hello from an Uruguayan who worked as a Software Engineer at Google Zürich. No, you're not screwed at all :)

revelation 10y ago

The corollary is that while public universities, certainly in Germany, will admit almost anyone regardless of grades or pre-admission exams, the introductory courses will drive 40-50% away within the first two terms of any STEM degree. There is no grading on a curve, no endless midterms to pass a course despite failing the final - most of the time a single 2h final exam will entirely determine your passing grade, and it's not uncommon to have 60% of a cohort fail. Fail the same course three times and you are out right there and then, permanently barred from continuing your studies for the same degree. It's like hiring based on bullshit (cough essays) or work samples.

khedoros1 10y ago

> The only apparent benefit is networking and I'd dare say that only matters in Finance/Law. I found it valuable to have a curated list of things to learn (both the class list, and the syllabus within each class), the opportunity to work together in person with other students studying the same thing, access to professors, and to live in an academically-focused community. I went to a well-regarded, but not top-tier, California State school. That school is currently accepting 4,500 new students every year out of a pool of 50,000 applications. A few years after I started working, I started being contacted by various famous companies. I'm more limited by not really wanting to move to Silicon Valley than I am by my choice of school. In my opinion, university helped direct my learning path, provided external incentives to learn things that I might've been reluctant to learn otherwise, provided a great learning environment, and put me in contact with people that I wouldn't have met and benefited from without being there. Having a degree from almost anywhere will make it easier to find a first job than trying to do it through self-study.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]