5 ms·

Legally - is this considered assault?

by joelrunyon 10y ago

taf2 10y ago
Or trespassing? Law is fun right?
namlem 10y ago
No, but it might be grounds for a suit against the police.
- jessaustin 10y ago
  The passenger was attacked by a random big dude in blue jeans. Sure there were uniforms looking on with approval, but this guy looked like a baggage handler not police?
  - strictnein 10y ago
    Sky marshal? Doubt some random just decided to drag someone off a plane.
    - jessaustin 10y ago
      Watch the video. The guy is big, but he's not acting like police, and he doesn't have any sort of uniform. The two useless cops are just looking on like useless cops do.
      - strictnein 10y ago
        I watched the video. Sky marshals purposefully wear normal clothes, so they blend in with the rest of the passengers on the flight. Having them wear uniforms would kind of defeat the purpose. The cops are likely waiting until the passenger is off the plane to take him into custody.
        jessaustin 10y ago
        I suppose he could have identified himself and displayed a badge before the video started, but nothing about this guy said "police" to me. My experience with airport police says that taking the guy into custody was the last thing the actual police wanted to do. That suspicion is confirmed by the fact that after getting dragged off, the passenger reboarded the plane. Justifiably, real police don't consider themselves airline employees. They look down on both airline security and TSA. Actually the real police might well have told United to increase the voucher amount like any civilized human organization would do. The gate agent then looked outside and picked out the biggest meanest baggage handler she saw. I really doubt the Sky Marshals want any part of this disaster.
phil21 10y ago
I'd venture to guess likely not at first glance - the guy was trespassing at that point and refused to move. The only alternative from that limited perspective is use of force. You can't just refuse to leave an aircraft when instructed to do so by the crew. The reason simply doesn't matter - the time to fight about that is off the aircraft. It may be considered excessive force however - which likely opens up avenues for assault and similar charges. Heck if I know though, IANAL and now I'm well off into the speculation weeds.
- AnimalMuppet 10y ago
  > You can't just refuse to leave an aircraft when instructed to do so by the crew. As I read the article, the police showed up, and he still refused to leave the aircraft. You can't just refuse when the cops tell you to leave. There are going to be physical consequences for that. > It may be considered excessive force however Yes, it may.
objclxt 10y ago
No. It's a federal crime to disobey instructions of the flight or the captain. If they ask you to leave the aircraft you're required to leave. If you refuse and need to be physically removed, tough. Not that I'm saying this makes United's behavior acceptable - I have no idea how they managed to load the plane before realizing they needed extra seats - just that the law is, in this case, on their side.
- kordless 10y ago
  I'm not trying to rationalize anyone's actions here, but if the captain told you to kill another passenger, that is not within his right of removal of choice for individual. i.e. The captain is only allowed to remove choice for an individual when the group is threatened, given they are in charge, by law, of making choices for group (perhaps for the reason of or related to in-flight matters). Edit: changed he to they.
  - phil21 10y ago
    That's actually not true (afaik). Certainly the command to kill another passenger is unlawful, and you won't carry it out. But also just as certainly he can tell you to leave the aircraft for refusing. There literally is absolutely no legal right for you to stay on that vessel after the captain requests you leave. Plenty of incidents support this on a practical level - captains remove people rarely but not unheard of for silly and discriminatory reasons. They likely get disciplined after the fact by the company, but in the moment you have zero recourse as a passenger who was asked to leave. Your options are to grab your bag and walk off, or be removed and possibly go to jail. Either way you are pleading your case on the ground.
    - kordless 10y ago
      > That's actually not true What exactly did I say that wasn't true? If a captain removes people for discrimination, then they are removing choice from individual based on making choice for group. People don't want to hear a racist's rationalizations, so as a group decision it might be a good one, especially given it is related to in-flight matters (or the prediction it will be related to in-flight matters). Again, I state that the captain is only allowed (legally) to remove choice for individual when the group (all people in plane) are denied things related to in-flight matters. Laws are typically rational. I will note my response was directed to the claim that if they ask you to do something, you must do so. I'm stating that I do not believe, in all cases, the captain has the rational right, by law, to remove choice from an individual if they are not threatening choice for group. That's not to say the captain can't and won't do a removal, but it is irrational to remove choice from individual if they are not threatening group. That also implies it might not pass the muster of law, and a passenger would not be "guilty" of breaking a law by resisting removal. And besides, four people had to go, so the choice to remove that one individual's right to choice was removed by randomness or judgement, both of which are irrational actions.
TallGuyShort 10y ago
Hard to say. Which laws continue to be enforceable against airport police if there's an insinuation that you may have been difficult?
djsumdog 10y ago
Depends on the lawyer, if you can get it before a judge and judge/jury. It's unlikely since United has very expensive lawyers I'm sure. Remember, the law is different depending on your income and status. Large companies are like very rich people. They can and do often get away with murder.
- Analemma_ 10y ago
  I don't think that matters in this case. When (not if) this guy sues, United is going to pay a huge settlement (with a gag clause) to make this go away as quickly as possible. They do not want this going to court with weeks of media attention, even if their case is ironclad.
rdtsc 10y ago
It would have to go before a judge. It could be a case of excessive force. Was there something else they could have done rather than end up with him getting knocked out and a bloody nose. As someone else mentioned it would be brought against the policeman in this case (or authority they work for). United unfortunately is probably legally in the right here. However this is a major fuck up and it will take them a while to clear this black PR mark from their record. Anyone searching for it will find "United" might find this "Airline drags doctor off the flight because they wanted to fly their employees instead" for years to come. Hopefully it was really worth getting those employees there...
- FabHK 10y ago
  Paradoxically, I'd argue that many knowledgeable people/frequent flyers will understand and excuse United's behaviour, but they haven't flown United for years, because they're so crap. While clueless idiots are now making a huge shitstorm on social media, and then fly United next week because it's $3.50 cheaper. So, not sure that will have any impact on United's actual numbers.

Legally - is this considered assault?

taf2 10y ago

Or trespassing? Law is fun right?

namlem 10y ago

No, but it might be grounds for a suit against the police.

jessaustin 10y ago
The passenger was attacked by a random big dude in blue jeans. Sure there were uniforms looking on with approval, but this guy looked like a baggage handler not police?
- strictnein 10y ago
  Sky marshal? Doubt some random just decided to drag someone off a plane.
  - jessaustin 10y ago
    Watch the video. The guy is big, but he's not acting like police, and he doesn't have any sort of uniform. The two useless cops are just looking on like useless cops do.
    - strictnein 10y ago
      I watched the video. Sky marshals purposefully wear normal clothes, so they blend in with the rest of the passengers on the flight. Having them wear uniforms would kind of defeat the purpose. The cops are likely waiting until the passenger is off the plane to take him into custody.
      - jessaustin 10y ago
        I suppose he could have identified himself and displayed a badge before the video started, but nothing about this guy said "police" to me. My experience with airport police says that taking the guy into custody was the last thing the actual police wanted to do. That suspicion is confirmed by the fact that after getting dragged off, the passenger reboarded the plane. Justifiably, real police don't consider themselves airline employees. They look down on both airline security and TSA. Actually the real police might well have told United to increase the voucher amount like any civilized human organization would do. The gate agent then looked outside and picked out the biggest meanest baggage handler she saw. I really doubt the Sky Marshals want any part of this disaster.

phil21 10y ago

I'd venture to guess likely not at first glance - the guy was trespassing at that point and refused to move. The only alternative from that limited perspective is use of force. You can't just refuse to leave an aircraft when instructed to do so by the crew. The reason simply doesn't matter - the time to fight about that is off the aircraft. It may be considered excessive force however - which likely opens up avenues for assault and similar charges. Heck if I know though, IANAL and now I'm well off into the speculation weeds.

AnimalMuppet 10y ago
> You can't just refuse to leave an aircraft when instructed to do so by the crew. As I read the article, the police showed up, and he still refused to leave the aircraft. You can't just refuse when the cops tell you to leave. There are going to be physical consequences for that. > It may be considered excessive force however Yes, it may.

objclxt 10y ago

No. It's a federal crime to disobey instructions of the flight or the captain. If they ask you to leave the aircraft you're required to leave. If you refuse and need to be physically removed, tough. Not that I'm saying this makes United's behavior acceptable - I have no idea how they managed to load the plane before realizing they needed extra seats - just that the law is, in this case, on their side.

kordless 10y ago
I'm not trying to rationalize anyone's actions here, but if the captain told you to kill another passenger, that is not within his right of removal of choice for individual. i.e. The captain is only allowed to remove choice for an individual when the group is threatened, given they are in charge, by law, of making choices for group (perhaps for the reason of or related to in-flight matters). Edit: changed he to they.
- phil21 10y ago
  That's actually not true (afaik). Certainly the command to kill another passenger is unlawful, and you won't carry it out. But also just as certainly he can tell you to leave the aircraft for refusing. There literally is absolutely no legal right for you to stay on that vessel after the captain requests you leave. Plenty of incidents support this on a practical level - captains remove people rarely but not unheard of for silly and discriminatory reasons. They likely get disciplined after the fact by the company, but in the moment you have zero recourse as a passenger who was asked to leave. Your options are to grab your bag and walk off, or be removed and possibly go to jail. Either way you are pleading your case on the ground.
  - kordless 10y ago
    > That's actually not true What exactly did I say that wasn't true? If a captain removes people for discrimination, then they are removing choice from individual based on making choice for group. People don't want to hear a racist's rationalizations, so as a group decision it might be a good one, especially given it is related to in-flight matters (or the prediction it will be related to in-flight matters). Again, I state that the captain is only allowed (legally) to remove choice for individual when the group (all people in plane) are denied things related to in-flight matters. Laws are typically rational. I will note my response was directed to the claim that if they ask you to do something, you must do so. I'm stating that I do not believe, in all cases, the captain has the rational right, by law, to remove choice from an individual if they are not threatening choice for group. That's not to say the captain can't and won't do a removal, but it is irrational to remove choice from individual if they are not threatening group. That also implies it might not pass the muster of law, and a passenger would not be "guilty" of breaking a law by resisting removal. And besides, four people had to go, so the choice to remove that one individual's right to choice was removed by randomness or judgement, both of which are irrational actions.

TallGuyShort 10y ago

Hard to say. Which laws continue to be enforceable against airport police if there's an insinuation that you may have been difficult?

djsumdog 10y ago

Depends on the lawyer, if you can get it before a judge and judge/jury. It's unlikely since United has very expensive lawyers I'm sure. Remember, the law is different depending on your income and status. Large companies are like very rich people. They can and do often get away with murder.

Analemma_ 10y ago
I don't think that matters in this case. When (not if) this guy sues, United is going to pay a huge settlement (with a gag clause) to make this go away as quickly as possible. They do not want this going to court with weeks of media attention, even if their case is ironclad.

rdtsc 10y ago

It would have to go before a judge. It could be a case of excessive force. Was there something else they could have done rather than end up with him getting knocked out and a bloody nose. As someone else mentioned it would be brought against the policeman in this case (or authority they work for). United unfortunately is probably legally in the right here. However this is a major fuck up and it will take them a while to clear this black PR mark from their record. Anyone searching for it will find "United" might find this "Airline drags doctor off the flight because they wanted to fly their employees instead" for years to come. Hopefully it was really worth getting those employees there...

FabHK 10y ago
Paradoxically, I'd argue that many knowledgeable people/frequent flyers will understand and excuse United's behaviour, but they haven't flown United for years, because they're so crap. While clueless idiots are now making a huge shitstorm on social media, and then fly United next week because it's $3.50 cheaper. So, not sure that will have any impact on United's actual numbers.