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Or they can learn some skills and work for a different employer or start their own business. The options are always going to be limited for those with the least

Or they can learn some skills and work for a different employer or start their own business. The options are always going to be limited for those with the least skills that aren't learning new skills. It's 2017. Never before in the history of mankind has so much knowledge been accessible for so many at such a low cost (typically just the cost of a computer and internet access).

dagenleg 10y ago
And who will hire a 40y.o. worker with no work experience and some internet-taught skills?
- malandrew 10y ago
  More employers than would will hire a 40y.o. worker with no work experience and no skills.
- jstanley 10y ago
  Nobody is suggesting people get hired with no experience and little skill. If you create value for people they'll give you money for it, it's as simple as that. If people aren't prepared to give you money for it, it's obviously not creating as much value as you think it is. That's nobody's fault but your own.
  - badsock 10y ago
    Ah, the good old Social Darwinism argument.
    - newyankee 10y ago
      Survive or die, i am thriving because i am smart, dedicated, hardworking and you won't because likely you miss some of these things (backgrounds do not matter) /s
  - s73ver 10y ago
    So how does this person feed their family, then?
    - jstanley 10y ago
      They won't be able to. How does a wild animal feed his family if he can't catch any food? He gets out-competed by more effective individuals. Given finite resources and unbounded population growth, population must grow to the point where there are not enough resources to support everybody, and then some people have to start dying.
      - s73ver 10y ago
        Ok. We'll just make sure to move them all next to you while this happens.
      - Can_Not 10y ago
        As much as you'd like to invoke social Darwinism, maybe they are secretly lazy or whatever, but there is one underlying issue. We are a modern civilized society. As a society, we have an obligation to prepare our children for the future. "Let them starve" means I'm going to be killed in front of my son behind a theatre by someone who's parents were allowed to starve. The solution isn't to buy a house in a gated community and pretend like problems go away.
derrickdirge 10y ago
Just the cost of a computer and internet access. Which I pay for with money from...where, exactly?
- malandrew 10y ago
  Cheap new laptops are in the sub-$200 range. Most educational content is text or simple videos, both of which can be consumed on a cheap laptop. The cheapest broadband plan from Xfinity in my area is $40/month. That being said, most people participating in the gig economy need access to the Internet to even participate, so most likely already have both a company and internet access. The people you should be worrying about are those that have no under-utilized assets to capitalize on such as a car or spare room.
  - John23832 10y ago
    >Cheap new laptops are in the sub-$200 range. Most educational content is text or simple videos, both of which can be consumed on a cheap laptop. The cheapest broadband plan from Xfinity in my area is $40/month. 200 bucks a lot for some people, and you have to pass a credit check to get xfinity access. > That being said, most people participating in the gig economy need access to the Internet to even participate, so most likely already have both a company and internet access. Cell service != general internet service. Try bootstrapping yourself into a tech job with only cell phone access. That may work in the third world where the standards are lower, but not in the West.
    - cableshaft 10y ago
      I manage to do quite a bit during lunches with a $200 computer at places that don't have internet access. Sometimes I use my cell phone to look something up, but I can also just wait until later or check a downloaded pdf. You don't need to have constant internet access to be able to be productive on a computer. In fact, I'd argue that often not having internet can make you more productive, by not giving you any distractions. Well, if you know your entire domain well, at least. At work I'm constantly fighting frameworks or APIs or reaching edge cases or error messages I've never seen before that I've had to look up, so I'd be a lot less productive without internet. But I can program for quite some time in Python, vanilla C#, and to a lesser extent Swift without looking anything up. And back in the day I knew Actionscript so well I never needed the internet to be productive (I miss those days). Really, you need to be able to not have to context switch a whole lot. All-in-one platforms let you stay in one context; most modern web platforms force you to context switch all the damn time.
EliRivers 10y ago
So what's going wrong? Why do we have so many people who, in times gone by would have been working semi-skilled or skilled blue-collar jobs, now scrabbling for unskilled work? Why aren't they all learning how to be chemical engineers by reading about it at their local library's internet PC? Clearly just having this knowledge available doesn't work.
- devopsforlyfe 10y ago
  You would hire a self-taught chemical engineer? Nothing that can possibly go wrong with that.
- cookiecaper 10y ago
  I don't ascribe the entire failure to this, but we've put significant barriers in the way of a self-motivated learner. Chief among these is the arbitrary requirement of many employers that a college degree, and particularly a degree specialized in the career field, is mandatory before any employment can occur. Not only does this incur significant financial cost, but it also incurs a completely untenable time cost for most people aged 25+, who need to provide both physically and emotionally for themselves and their families. While one could argue such credentials are important for life-or-death fields like engineering and medicine, the fact of the matter is that most college grads come out with a degree in a soft skill that doesn't really hold a strong relevance to the job they go on to fill in the workforce. In reality, a college education functions as little more than a class filter. If we want improve accessibility for the self-taught and make merit more meaningful, we should stop demanding arbitrary credentials for jobs that don't really need them.
intended 10y ago
Right, and education results in MOOCs remain as abysmal as before. Time, opportunity, survival needs, many things curtail the ability of people to study.
jmcgough 10y ago
This isn't a viable option for a 40 year old man with limited computer skills (and maybe not even a high school education) and is spending all their free time doing uber to feed and house a family. We can't simply dismiss people for "not working hard/smart enough" when the system is actively working against them to keep them in low-pay jobs
- malandrew 10y ago
  Most full time TNC drivers I've spoken to only work 50-60 hours a week, which is about the same as what I work at my job. It leaves plenty of time to learn new skills. The truth is that most people regardless of education and job don't realize how they utilize the 168 hours per week that we all get to split between sleep, work, eating and leisure. When I used to teach, I had students give me the excuse all the time that they didn't have enough time to complete the assignment. I would ask others in the class how long they spent on average and then ask the students making the excuse to give me a rough breakdown of how they spent their last 168 hours. After account for sleep, other classes, other work, meals and liesure, they would routinely be unable to account for about ~40 hours. Most hours are squandered.
  - intended 10y ago
    Yes, that's normal life. You have to be very clear and ready to tell people that they have to give that up if they want to survive. Because in the end that's what people want. A normal life. Not everyone is passionate. Or driven, or interested in those things that can pay well. Which means that those hours must be stolen from a whole constellation of distractions (which get better at keeping you engaged) and interactions with other people. So people have to be made aware that they are going to be more unhappy not doing the work, than if they did do it. Most people aren't going to think like that.
    - malandrew 10y ago
      Most people aren't going to think like that. But is the rest of society responsible for coddling those unwilling to contribute? For the record, I have no problem with society supporting those who cannot support themselves by providing those people with welfare. There is a difference between being unable and unwilling to contribute.

dagenleg 10y ago

And who will hire a 40y.o. worker with no work experience and some internet-taught skills?

malandrew 10y ago
More employers than would will hire a 40y.o. worker with no work experience and no skills.
jstanley 10y ago
Nobody is suggesting people get hired with no experience and little skill. If you create value for people they'll give you money for it, it's as simple as that. If people aren't prepared to give you money for it, it's obviously not creating as much value as you think it is. That's nobody's fault but your own.
- badsock 10y ago
  Ah, the good old Social Darwinism argument.
  - newyankee 10y ago
    Survive or die, i am thriving because i am smart, dedicated, hardworking and you won't because likely you miss some of these things (backgrounds do not matter) /s
- s73ver 10y ago
  So how does this person feed their family, then?
  - jstanley 10y ago
    They won't be able to. How does a wild animal feed his family if he can't catch any food? He gets out-competed by more effective individuals. Given finite resources and unbounded population growth, population must grow to the point where there are not enough resources to support everybody, and then some people have to start dying.
    - s73ver 10y ago
      Ok. We'll just make sure to move them all next to you while this happens.
    - Can_Not 10y ago
      As much as you'd like to invoke social Darwinism, maybe they are secretly lazy or whatever, but there is one underlying issue. We are a modern civilized society. As a society, we have an obligation to prepare our children for the future. "Let them starve" means I'm going to be killed in front of my son behind a theatre by someone who's parents were allowed to starve. The solution isn't to buy a house in a gated community and pretend like problems go away.

derrickdirge 10y ago

Just the cost of a computer and internet access. Which I pay for with money from...where, exactly?

malandrew 10y ago
Cheap new laptops are in the sub-$200 range. Most educational content is text or simple videos, both of which can be consumed on a cheap laptop. The cheapest broadband plan from Xfinity in my area is $40/month. That being said, most people participating in the gig economy need access to the Internet to even participate, so most likely already have both a company and internet access. The people you should be worrying about are those that have no under-utilized assets to capitalize on such as a car or spare room.
- John23832 10y ago
  >Cheap new laptops are in the sub-$200 range. Most educational content is text or simple videos, both of which can be consumed on a cheap laptop. The cheapest broadband plan from Xfinity in my area is $40/month. 200 bucks a lot for some people, and you have to pass a credit check to get xfinity access. > That being said, most people participating in the gig economy need access to the Internet to even participate, so most likely already have both a company and internet access. Cell service != general internet service. Try bootstrapping yourself into a tech job with only cell phone access. That may work in the third world where the standards are lower, but not in the West.
  - cableshaft 10y ago
    I manage to do quite a bit during lunches with a $200 computer at places that don't have internet access. Sometimes I use my cell phone to look something up, but I can also just wait until later or check a downloaded pdf. You don't need to have constant internet access to be able to be productive on a computer. In fact, I'd argue that often not having internet can make you more productive, by not giving you any distractions. Well, if you know your entire domain well, at least. At work I'm constantly fighting frameworks or APIs or reaching edge cases or error messages I've never seen before that I've had to look up, so I'd be a lot less productive without internet. But I can program for quite some time in Python, vanilla C#, and to a lesser extent Swift without looking anything up. And back in the day I knew Actionscript so well I never needed the internet to be productive (I miss those days). Really, you need to be able to not have to context switch a whole lot. All-in-one platforms let you stay in one context; most modern web platforms force you to context switch all the damn time.

EliRivers 10y ago

So what's going wrong? Why do we have so many people who, in times gone by would have been working semi-skilled or skilled blue-collar jobs, now scrabbling for unskilled work? Why aren't they all learning how to be chemical engineers by reading about it at their local library's internet PC? Clearly just having this knowledge available doesn't work.

devopsforlyfe 10y ago
You would hire a self-taught chemical engineer? Nothing that can possibly go wrong with that.
cookiecaper 10y ago
I don't ascribe the entire failure to this, but we've put significant barriers in the way of a self-motivated learner. Chief among these is the arbitrary requirement of many employers that a college degree, and particularly a degree specialized in the career field, is mandatory before any employment can occur. Not only does this incur significant financial cost, but it also incurs a completely untenable time cost for most people aged 25+, who need to provide both physically and emotionally for themselves and their families. While one could argue such credentials are important for life-or-death fields like engineering and medicine, the fact of the matter is that most college grads come out with a degree in a soft skill that doesn't really hold a strong relevance to the job they go on to fill in the workforce. In reality, a college education functions as little more than a class filter. If we want improve accessibility for the self-taught and make merit more meaningful, we should stop demanding arbitrary credentials for jobs that don't really need them.

intended 10y ago

Right, and education results in MOOCs remain as abysmal as before. Time, opportunity, survival needs, many things curtail the ability of people to study.

jmcgough 10y ago

This isn't a viable option for a 40 year old man with limited computer skills (and maybe not even a high school education) and is spending all their free time doing uber to feed and house a family. We can't simply dismiss people for "not working hard/smart enough" when the system is actively working against them to keep them in low-pay jobs

malandrew 10y ago
Most full time TNC drivers I've spoken to only work 50-60 hours a week, which is about the same as what I work at my job. It leaves plenty of time to learn new skills. The truth is that most people regardless of education and job don't realize how they utilize the 168 hours per week that we all get to split between sleep, work, eating and leisure. When I used to teach, I had students give me the excuse all the time that they didn't have enough time to complete the assignment. I would ask others in the class how long they spent on average and then ask the students making the excuse to give me a rough breakdown of how they spent their last 168 hours. After account for sleep, other classes, other work, meals and liesure, they would routinely be unable to account for about ~40 hours. Most hours are squandered.
- intended 10y ago
  Yes, that's normal life. You have to be very clear and ready to tell people that they have to give that up if they want to survive. Because in the end that's what people want. A normal life. Not everyone is passionate. Or driven, or interested in those things that can pay well. Which means that those hours must be stolen from a whole constellation of distractions (which get better at keeping you engaged) and interactions with other people. So people have to be made aware that they are going to be more unhappy not doing the work, than if they did do it. Most people aren't going to think like that.
  - malandrew 10y ago
    Most people aren't going to think like that. But is the rest of society responsible for coddling those unwilling to contribute? For the record, I have no problem with society supporting those who cannot support themselves by providing those people with welfare. There is a difference between being unable and unwilling to contribute.