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> They've dropped their original PaaS Just to clarify, we never dropped the original PaaS. Deis (now named Workflow) is still in active development, uses Kube

> They've dropped their original PaaS Just to clarify, we never dropped the original PaaS. Deis (now named Workflow) is still in active development, uses Kubernetes as the underlying scheduler and has monthly releases. We actually just released v2.13.0 5 days ago. :) https://github.com/deis/workflow https://github.com/deis/workflow

yebyen 10y ago
In a sense it is the same product (for the users, Deis Workflow / Deis v2 is basically a drop-in replacement for Deis v1, and API Clients such as Deis Dash http://deisdash.com/ http://deisdash.com/ can work with both). But in a very real sense also, the old product was End-of-Lifed and Workflow is a completely separate and different product. There is no direct upgrade path from v1 to v2, the branding was changed (new product name entirely) to coincide with the release of v2, and the v1 LTS branch is no longer receiving updates, support, or new builds when issues are identified. It's kind of like the axe that is passed down from generation to generation for 150 years. Can't really call it the same axe anymore when you've replaced the blade and the handle several times over. (This coming from a happy Deis user that still has living installations of both v1 and Workflow.) Congratulations on the acquisition!
- bacongobbler 10y ago
  > the old product was End-of-Lifed To be fair, we did continue to support Deis v1 for 3 whole years(!), which is very long considering we're just a small startup. Being woken at 3AM from yet another obscure etcd/fleet server failure really sucked, and systemd never truly got along well with Docker making for some fun interactions with Fleet. Overall (speaking personally as an engineer and support engineer), we are very happy we made the decision to switch to Kubernetes. Mind you, we were as early adopter as you could get with Fleet and etcd at the time, and etcd in particular has been significantly better for us in terms of stability/error reporting. > There is no direct upgrade path from v1 to v2 I agree that it sucks there was no upgrade path from v1 to v2, but we felt it was necessary to make breaking changes to move forward from Fleet into the world of Kubernetes. That doesn't change the fact that we never dropped the PaaS product as a whole, though. > the branding was changed (new product name entirely) to coincide with the release of v2 This was actually more to do with us becoming "Deis the company" more-so than the v2 release. Lots of users were getting confused with "Deis the company" and "Deis the github project", so we decided to rename it Workflow to help make it more clear in conversation. > and Workflow is a completely separate and different product. Curious to understand how you feel like v2 is a completely different product. From a user's standpoint the product offering never changed. The API, CLI and `git push` workflows were all still present in v2 and were drop-in replacements, save for backwards-incompatible database migrations (hence v2.0.0). It was just the administration's point of view that changed (Fleet -> Kubernetes, deisctl -> helm). To me it still feels like the same product, but I'm curious to hear from you why you feel differently. :)
  - robszumski 10y ago
    A huge kudos for keeping up your legacy support for 3 years! Making needed but intrusive architectural changes is hard for any open source project, and gets harder when you have paying customers. You typically never get praise for doing the right thing...thank you.
  - yebyen 10y ago
    Please do not take anything I said as an attempt to throw shade or being critical of your team! As a non-paying customer, I have to say I'm extremely happy with the support you've delivered (and consistently.) I wish I could have got my company to throw money at you, but it did not work out. The kind of support I got from Deis the company is really without comparison when it comes to Open Source projects anywhere else. The fact that v2 is a drop-in replacement for v1 really eases the sting of the fact that there is no direct upgrade path. I still have an old Deis v1 kicking around because I left the company, transitioned to hourly, and made an agreement to draw down my hours at this company, where we are in reality hardly using Deis at all. But in the small capacity we are using it, there is what I'd call "VMware Levels of Reliability" and so it successfully became a piece of the infrastructure there. So it is disingenuous for me to say that I was not able to upgrade my v1 installation. The reason I was not able to upgrade is because there was not strong interest in upgrading. The unsupported product is as good as our (also unsupported! but luckily not End-of-Life) VSphere and VSan environment. It is a different product to me, in short because I am the one administering it. It runs on a different platform altogether, it has no distributed filesystem component where the old version did, and it has not really harmed me in any way that there is no upgrade path. It is just a couple of facts that led me to the conclusion that they are in fact distinct and other products that are not directly related to each other, except that they could easily pass for one another if you asked a user. I am really happy for you guys, Microsoft is a real big name compared to EngineYard, and while I could get behind EY+Deis, it's a hard sell for the Design Review Board. But I can tell them "look, Microsoft is doing this now" and they will know what that means instantly. Big guns. No joke software. This is how I've actually felt about Deis from the beginning, but now it's going to be a much easier sell to get Big Wigs to sign off on. Nobody ever got fired for buying Microsoft!
eudoxus 10y ago
I think he is just referring to your Deis v1 PaaS before you started on Workflow and k8.
- bacongobbler 10y ago
  That is true; though technically the Deis v1 PaaS still lives on as Workflow. Internally the v1 PaaS bits are all there in Workflow, just switching out Fleet for Kubernetes. It was just renamed when we became "Deis the company" rather than "Deis the project". I just wanted to clarify that we never "dropped" doing the PaaS thing.

yebyen 10y ago

In a sense it is the same product (for the users, Deis Workflow / Deis v2 is basically a drop-in replacement for Deis v1, and API Clients such as Deis Dash http://deisdash.com/ http://deisdash.com/ can work with both). But in a very real sense also, the old product was End-of-Lifed and Workflow is a completely separate and different product. There is no direct upgrade path from v1 to v2, the branding was changed (new product name entirely) to coincide with the release of v2, and the v1 LTS branch is no longer receiving updates, support, or new builds when issues are identified. It's kind of like the axe that is passed down from generation to generation for 150 years. Can't really call it the same axe anymore when you've replaced the blade and the handle several times over. (This coming from a happy Deis user that still has living installations of both v1 and Workflow.) Congratulations on the acquisition!

bacongobbler 10y ago
> the old product was End-of-Lifed To be fair, we did continue to support Deis v1 for 3 whole years(!), which is very long considering we're just a small startup. Being woken at 3AM from yet another obscure etcd/fleet server failure really sucked, and systemd never truly got along well with Docker making for some fun interactions with Fleet. Overall (speaking personally as an engineer and support engineer), we are very happy we made the decision to switch to Kubernetes. Mind you, we were as early adopter as you could get with Fleet and etcd at the time, and etcd in particular has been significantly better for us in terms of stability/error reporting. > There is no direct upgrade path from v1 to v2 I agree that it sucks there was no upgrade path from v1 to v2, but we felt it was necessary to make breaking changes to move forward from Fleet into the world of Kubernetes. That doesn't change the fact that we never dropped the PaaS product as a whole, though. > the branding was changed (new product name entirely) to coincide with the release of v2 This was actually more to do with us becoming "Deis the company" more-so than the v2 release. Lots of users were getting confused with "Deis the company" and "Deis the github project", so we decided to rename it Workflow to help make it more clear in conversation. > and Workflow is a completely separate and different product. Curious to understand how you feel like v2 is a completely different product. From a user's standpoint the product offering never changed. The API, CLI and `git push` workflows were all still present in v2 and were drop-in replacements, save for backwards-incompatible database migrations (hence v2.0.0). It was just the administration's point of view that changed (Fleet -> Kubernetes, deisctl -> helm). To me it still feels like the same product, but I'm curious to hear from you why you feel differently. :)
- robszumski 10y ago
  A huge kudos for keeping up your legacy support for 3 years! Making needed but intrusive architectural changes is hard for any open source project, and gets harder when you have paying customers. You typically never get praise for doing the right thing...thank you.
- yebyen 10y ago
  Please do not take anything I said as an attempt to throw shade or being critical of your team! As a non-paying customer, I have to say I'm extremely happy with the support you've delivered (and consistently.) I wish I could have got my company to throw money at you, but it did not work out. The kind of support I got from Deis the company is really without comparison when it comes to Open Source projects anywhere else. The fact that v2 is a drop-in replacement for v1 really eases the sting of the fact that there is no direct upgrade path. I still have an old Deis v1 kicking around because I left the company, transitioned to hourly, and made an agreement to draw down my hours at this company, where we are in reality hardly using Deis at all. But in the small capacity we are using it, there is what I'd call "VMware Levels of Reliability" and so it successfully became a piece of the infrastructure there. So it is disingenuous for me to say that I was not able to upgrade my v1 installation. The reason I was not able to upgrade is because there was not strong interest in upgrading. The unsupported product is as good as our (also unsupported! but luckily not End-of-Life) VSphere and VSan environment. It is a different product to me, in short because I am the one administering it. It runs on a different platform altogether, it has no distributed filesystem component where the old version did, and it has not really harmed me in any way that there is no upgrade path. It is just a couple of facts that led me to the conclusion that they are in fact distinct and other products that are not directly related to each other, except that they could easily pass for one another if you asked a user. I am really happy for you guys, Microsoft is a real big name compared to EngineYard, and while I could get behind EY+Deis, it's a hard sell for the Design Review Board. But I can tell them "look, Microsoft is doing this now" and they will know what that means instantly. Big guns. No joke software. This is how I've actually felt about Deis from the beginning, but now it's going to be a much easier sell to get Big Wigs to sign off on. Nobody ever got fired for buying Microsoft!

eudoxus 10y ago

I think he is just referring to your Deis v1 PaaS before you started on Workflow and k8.

bacongobbler 10y ago
That is true; though technically the Deis v1 PaaS still lives on as Workflow. Internally the v1 PaaS bits are all there in Workflow, just switching out Fleet for Kubernetes. It was just renamed when we became "Deis the company" rather than "Deis the project". I just wanted to clarify that we never "dropped" doing the PaaS thing.