4 ms·

VAT is technically paid by the customer, you just collect them to make the process slightly less ridiculous. therefore, VAT is paid based on customer location.

by wayn3 10y ago

VAT is technically paid by the customer, you just collect them to make the process slightly less ridiculous. therefore, VAT is paid based on customer location. this does not mean that you dont have to pay VAT at all if you sell to germany. in that case, you ahve to pay german VAT. if youre smalltime enough, its likely that nobody will go after you, but thats what it is.

mherrmann 10y ago
That is correct. Afaik, you do have to charge VAT to customers outside the Netherlands (but in the EU).
- jacquesm 10y ago
  Yep. But how much to charge is dependent on what you charge for, where your customer is located and whether they are a business (with a registered VAT number in their own country) or a consumer.
timvdalen 10y ago
Correct, but you're not required to pay the local (Dutch) VAT, so the seller doesn't have to collect it. This tool shows the Dutch VAT rate (0.21) for all buyer countries, which is not correct in that case.
- mherrmann 10y ago
  I think you're wrong. Just because you don't owe VAT to the Netherlands doesn't mean you don't owe it to another EU country. [edit] Maybe I misunderstood. In what situation do you think you don't have to pay Dutch VAT, and what's the source of your information?
  - timvdalen 10y ago
    https://www.belastingdienst.nl/wps/wcm/connect/bldcontentnl/belastingdienst/zakelijk/btw/zakendoen_met_het_buitenland/goederen_en_diensten_naar_andere_eu_landen/goederen_en_diensten_naar_andere_eu_landen https://www.belastingdienst.nl/wps/wcm/connect/bldcontentnl/... >Over het algemeen brengt u geen btw in rekening aan ondernemers uit andere EU-landen. Bij goederen past u dan het 0%-tarief toe en bij diensten wordt de btw naar uw klant verlegd. In general, you should not charge VAT to entrepreneurs from other EU-countries. For goods, the 0%-tariff applies. For services, the VAT is transferred to the client. (Which means they need to declare the transaction and pay VAT in their country, which has nothing to do with your transaction with them).
    - jacquesm 10y ago
      Goods and services are dealt with completely differently when targeted at consumers or corporate customers (depending on the country). So there are 4 different combinations times the number of EU countries. And there are more exceptions when it comes to goods depending on the class of goods (food for instance).
    - mherrmann 10y ago
      This is about b2b. We're talking about selling to consumers. Big difference.
- wayn3 10y ago
  im not sure. i refuse to do business with anyone in the EU simply because Im not interested in negotiating tax rates with 27 different tax authorities. not worth all the bureaucracy.
  - jacquesm 10y ago
    That's what the 'MOSS' part of VATMOSS is all about: "Mini One Stop Shop", a way to take all your business across the various EU countries allowing you to specify which country you had how much turnover in and then paying this to a single account which will take care of disbursement. I used this system for as long as it has been active and it works but is still ridiculously labor intensive for small amounts. The bigger problem is that these rules were made to target companies like spotify and amazon who are large enough to simply work around the rule, effectively penalizing SMBs without any upside. Highly annoying.
    - dullgiulio 10y ago
      Would you mind explaining how these companies work around the rule? These services are all payments with credit card, it shouldn't be so hard to trace them.
      - jacquesm 10y ago
        The biggest ace they can play is process the payments outside of the EU.
- Silhouette 10y ago
  Please stop spreading misinformation. The place of supply rules for digital sales changed at the start of 2015, and you very much are required to charge VAT, at the appropriate rate, on cross border digital sales within the EU. The API we're discussing is presumably intended to make it easier to figure out what the appropriate rate is for any given sale, because the administrative overhead with the new scheme is significant.

by wayn3 10y ago

mherrmann 10y ago

That is correct. Afaik, you do have to charge VAT to customers outside the Netherlands (but in the EU).

jacquesm 10y ago
Yep. But how much to charge is dependent on what you charge for, where your customer is located and whether they are a business (with a registered VAT number in their own country) or a consumer.

timvdalen 10y ago

Correct, but you're not required to pay the local (Dutch) VAT, so the seller doesn't have to collect it. This tool shows the Dutch VAT rate (0.21) for all buyer countries, which is not correct in that case.

mherrmann 10y ago
I think you're wrong. Just because you don't owe VAT to the Netherlands doesn't mean you don't owe it to another EU country. [edit] Maybe I misunderstood. In what situation do you think you don't have to pay Dutch VAT, and what's the source of your information?
- timvdalen 10y ago
  https://www.belastingdienst.nl/wps/wcm/connect/bldcontentnl/belastingdienst/zakelijk/btw/zakendoen_met_het_buitenland/goederen_en_diensten_naar_andere_eu_landen/goederen_en_diensten_naar_andere_eu_landen https://www.belastingdienst.nl/wps/wcm/connect/bldcontentnl/... >Over het algemeen brengt u geen btw in rekening aan ondernemers uit andere EU-landen. Bij goederen past u dan het 0%-tarief toe en bij diensten wordt de btw naar uw klant verlegd. In general, you should not charge VAT to entrepreneurs from other EU-countries. For goods, the 0%-tariff applies. For services, the VAT is transferred to the client. (Which means they need to declare the transaction and pay VAT in their country, which has nothing to do with your transaction with them).
  - jacquesm 10y ago
    Goods and services are dealt with completely differently when targeted at consumers or corporate customers (depending on the country). So there are 4 different combinations times the number of EU countries. And there are more exceptions when it comes to goods depending on the class of goods (food for instance).
  - mherrmann 10y ago
    This is about b2b. We're talking about selling to consumers. Big difference.
wayn3 10y ago
im not sure. i refuse to do business with anyone in the EU simply because Im not interested in negotiating tax rates with 27 different tax authorities. not worth all the bureaucracy.
- jacquesm 10y ago
  That's what the 'MOSS' part of VATMOSS is all about: "Mini One Stop Shop", a way to take all your business across the various EU countries allowing you to specify which country you had how much turnover in and then paying this to a single account which will take care of disbursement. I used this system for as long as it has been active and it works but is still ridiculously labor intensive for small amounts. The bigger problem is that these rules were made to target companies like spotify and amazon who are large enough to simply work around the rule, effectively penalizing SMBs without any upside. Highly annoying.
  - dullgiulio 10y ago
    Would you mind explaining how these companies work around the rule? These services are all payments with credit card, it shouldn't be so hard to trace them.
    - jacquesm 10y ago
      The biggest ace they can play is process the payments outside of the EU.
Silhouette 10y ago
Please stop spreading misinformation. The place of supply rules for digital sales changed at the start of 2015, and you very much are required to charge VAT, at the appropriate rate, on cross border digital sales within the EU. The API we're discussing is presumably intended to make it easier to figure out what the appropriate rate is for any given sale, because the administrative overhead with the new scheme is significant.