4 ms·

>Waiting for "fake meat" to fix the problem is like saying: "I can't wait until we can grow zombies to pick cotton, then all the slaves can finally go free." I

by SerLava 10y ago

>Waiting for "fake meat" to fix the problem is like saying: "I can't wait until we can grow zombies to pick cotton, then all the slaves can finally go free." It's kind of like that... except that slaves were people - not chickens. Which certainly flavors the metaphor a bit.

pavlov 10y ago
Absolutely. That's the crux of the issue: do chickens' lives and feelings have any value? If so, how should society impose that value system on an enormous industry that optimizes to extract value from chickens' suffering?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- beaconstudios 10y ago
  I think the move to free-range farming has helped a lot to improve the situation. The majority of shops near me stock primarily free-range eggs and chicken due to consumer demand.
  - screwt 10y ago
    Be aware that 'free range' and ('organic', FWIW) are close to meaningless in terms of animal welfare. Both give a set of definitions for what meets the label, which is then achieved by farmers by the most cost-effective means possible. E.g. 1 - 'free range' chickens have almost no extra space per chicken compared to battery-farmed chickens, and many die after being trampled by the others. They are at least a breed which can stand on its own legs - battery chickens can't even walk. E.g. 2 - 'organic' animals must not be fed antibiotics (which means their general conditions must be good enough for not too many to die from disease, which is otherwise avoided by routine antibiotics in feed). This means sick animals are generally left to die rather than be treated, since allowing antibiotics would lose organic status. E.g. 3 - For eggs: no matter how good the conditions are for the hens, egg-laying chickens are a different breed to chickens-for-meat. Ergo, all male layer chicks are redundant, and are killed immediately on hatching (normal method is to grind the chicks en masse). Eating animals is not a pleasant thing. Definitely worth reading up on. (FTR: I eat animals, eggs, and dairy. I'm struggling to find out how to do so ethically, given the current 'ethical' labels are so close to meaningless.)
    - chickenfacts77 10y ago
      Re: your 2nd example, that's generally not true. Sick animals are usually given treatment including antibiotics. If the treatment disqualifies them from organic status they're moved into a different food stream. This is done for economic reasons, not care for the animal's welfare. Despite the image of a quaint family farm, most organic food is still a product of large industrial operations; someone like Tyson foods prices chicken similar to airline seats
      - parhurs 10y ago
        I find it hard to believe a single chicken, out of thousands, could receive individual attention at all (after they are sexed[0]). I could be wrong though. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chick_sexing https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chick_sexing
    - circlefavshape 10y ago
      I know this is obvious, but just want to point out that all of the above depends on the legal environment of the country the animals are raised in
    - beaconstudios 10y ago
      I think that depends on the country you're in - AFAIK the UK has quite good standards for products bearing the "free-range" or "organic" labels. The UK has also seen a wholesale consumer rejection of battery farming and a lot of shops now stock free-range eggs and meat by default.
  - wahnfrieden 10y ago
    You should be looking for eggs marked with the keyword "pastured", which is what you actually envision would be expressed by the deceptive "free-range". Pastured eggs are quite a bit more expensive of course.
- Chris2048 10y ago
  I think if human slaves where forced to live like regular chickens, they'd suffer too. What does a happy chicken make?
  - koolba 10y ago
    > What does a happy chicken make? Same thing a sad or lonely chicken makes: food. Since happiness is generally associated with good health I'd wager happier chickens are healthier, ergo, tastier.
    - Chris2048 10y ago
      > Since happiness is generally associated with good health Is it? Isn't human happiness associated with human good health?
- ArtDev 10y ago
  After raising my own egg chickens and butchering some of them, my perspective really changed. Chickens are surprisingly smart. After we left our hobby farm I decided to not eat anything smarter than a fish. (I don't eat octopus) I like being Pescatarian. I do try to avoid wild fish for ethical/environmental reasons. Food animals should always come from a farm, obviously.
  - hawkesnest 10y ago
    That's great that you found out chickens can be smart. You may be surprised at how clever fish are as well!
    - ArtDev 10y ago
      I used to farm fish too, and they are simple enough that I am okay with eating them. The level of intelligence I will eat, between chicken and fish, is totally arbitrary. I think this is true for anyone who is not actually vegetarian. The next level down is insects and oysters, I suppose.
  - kcanini 10y ago
    > Food animals should always come from a farm, obviously. I am a vegetarian, and I disagree with this. I feel that it is more ethical to kill and eat an animal that has at least been given a chance to live a free and natural life, vs. confining it to a prison from birth. Of course, it would be impossible to maintain humanity's current level of meat consumption without animal farms. I would prefer that people dramatically reduce their meat consumption, and eat only hunted/caught animals.
  - pvaldes 10y ago
    This is an example of how people can trick themselves into adopting random dogmas. Don't eat octopus because they are smart Eat fishes, even those able to detect, hunt, defeat and eat octopus (therefore smarter than them)

by SerLava 10y ago

pavlov 10y ago

Absolutely. That's the crux of the issue: do chickens' lives and feelings have any value? If so, how should society impose that value system on an enormous industry that optimizes to extract value from chickens' suffering?

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
beaconstudios 10y ago
I think the move to free-range farming has helped a lot to improve the situation. The majority of shops near me stock primarily free-range eggs and chicken due to consumer demand.
- screwt 10y ago
  Be aware that 'free range' and ('organic', FWIW) are close to meaningless in terms of animal welfare. Both give a set of definitions for what meets the label, which is then achieved by farmers by the most cost-effective means possible. E.g. 1 - 'free range' chickens have almost no extra space per chicken compared to battery-farmed chickens, and many die after being trampled by the others. They are at least a breed which can stand on its own legs - battery chickens can't even walk. E.g. 2 - 'organic' animals must not be fed antibiotics (which means their general conditions must be good enough for not too many to die from disease, which is otherwise avoided by routine antibiotics in feed). This means sick animals are generally left to die rather than be treated, since allowing antibiotics would lose organic status. E.g. 3 - For eggs: no matter how good the conditions are for the hens, egg-laying chickens are a different breed to chickens-for-meat. Ergo, all male layer chicks are redundant, and are killed immediately on hatching (normal method is to grind the chicks en masse). Eating animals is not a pleasant thing. Definitely worth reading up on. (FTR: I eat animals, eggs, and dairy. I'm struggling to find out how to do so ethically, given the current 'ethical' labels are so close to meaningless.)
  - chickenfacts77 10y ago
    Re: your 2nd example, that's generally not true. Sick animals are usually given treatment including antibiotics. If the treatment disqualifies them from organic status they're moved into a different food stream. This is done for economic reasons, not care for the animal's welfare. Despite the image of a quaint family farm, most organic food is still a product of large industrial operations; someone like Tyson foods prices chicken similar to airline seats
    - parhurs 10y ago
      I find it hard to believe a single chicken, out of thousands, could receive individual attention at all (after they are sexed[0]). I could be wrong though. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chick_sexing https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chick_sexing
  - circlefavshape 10y ago
    I know this is obvious, but just want to point out that all of the above depends on the legal environment of the country the animals are raised in
  - beaconstudios 10y ago
    I think that depends on the country you're in - AFAIK the UK has quite good standards for products bearing the "free-range" or "organic" labels. The UK has also seen a wholesale consumer rejection of battery farming and a lot of shops now stock free-range eggs and meat by default.
- wahnfrieden 10y ago
  You should be looking for eggs marked with the keyword "pastured", which is what you actually envision would be expressed by the deceptive "free-range". Pastured eggs are quite a bit more expensive of course.
Chris2048 10y ago
I think if human slaves where forced to live like regular chickens, they'd suffer too. What does a happy chicken make?
- koolba 10y ago
  > What does a happy chicken make? Same thing a sad or lonely chicken makes: food. Since happiness is generally associated with good health I'd wager happier chickens are healthier, ergo, tastier.
  - Chris2048 10y ago
    > Since happiness is generally associated with good health Is it? Isn't human happiness associated with human good health?
ArtDev 10y ago
After raising my own egg chickens and butchering some of them, my perspective really changed. Chickens are surprisingly smart. After we left our hobby farm I decided to not eat anything smarter than a fish. (I don't eat octopus) I like being Pescatarian. I do try to avoid wild fish for ethical/environmental reasons. Food animals should always come from a farm, obviously.
- hawkesnest 10y ago
  That's great that you found out chickens can be smart. You may be surprised at how clever fish are as well!
  - ArtDev 10y ago
    I used to farm fish too, and they are simple enough that I am okay with eating them. The level of intelligence I will eat, between chicken and fish, is totally arbitrary. I think this is true for anyone who is not actually vegetarian. The next level down is insects and oysters, I suppose.
- kcanini 10y ago
  > Food animals should always come from a farm, obviously. I am a vegetarian, and I disagree with this. I feel that it is more ethical to kill and eat an animal that has at least been given a chance to live a free and natural life, vs. confining it to a prison from birth. Of course, it would be impossible to maintain humanity's current level of meat consumption without animal farms. I would prefer that people dramatically reduce their meat consumption, and eat only hunted/caught animals.
- pvaldes 10y ago
  This is an example of how people can trick themselves into adopting random dogmas. Don't eat octopus because they are smart Eat fishes, even those able to detect, hunt, defeat and eat octopus (therefore smarter than them)