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Exploring the mysteries of Go with AlphaGo and China’s top players
- rshm 10y agoThere is another NN engine from Tencent making progress for last couple of weeks. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine_Art_(software) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine_Art_(software)
- gort 10y agoFine Art's played a lot the on Fox server. It actually hadn't been seen since March 11 (at which time it was still losing sometimes), but is playing again today...
- wslh 10y agoThis is exciting. Kasparov was prescient when he talked about and promoted advanced chess [1]. The concept was older but he was very humble on accepting this possibility. Magnus Carlsen training is with computers [2]. I would love to see Carlsen playing against the top computer chess program now. He is the "New Hope". BTW, it seems we are experiencing here in HN some kind of AI fundamentalism since the downvote rush doesn't correlate with this normal comment. I am not arguing against the downvotes, just that sych reactionary behavior was not expected. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Chess https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Chess [2] http://m.dw.com/en/world-chess-champion-magnus-carlsen-the-computer-never-has-been-an-opponent/a-19186058 http://m.dw.com/en/world-chess-champion-magnus-carlsen-the-c...
- arcticfox 10y ago> I would love to see Carlsen playing against the top computer chess program now. He is the "New Hope". I don't understand; he would get destroyed. Do you mean just to see what it would look like?
- wslh 10y agoThe answer is: we don't know yet.
- dfan 10y agoCarlsen himself certainly realizes he would have no chance in a match against the top computer engine. Its effective rating is probably at least 400 Elo above his.
- tedsanders 10y agoWe do know, with essentially 100% certainty. Carlson's elo rating is mid 2800s and the top engines are high 3300s. A 500 pt rating difference implies he has less than a 5% chance of winning a single game, let alone a match. Plus, he can play against an engine any time he wants. If he could beat them in some magically surprising way, would it make any sense for him to be keeping this amazing skill a secret from the world? No.
- wslh 10y ago> the top engines are high 3300s. Sources?
- nl 10y agoSeriously? https://www.google.com.au/search?q=chess+engine+elo+rating https://www.google.com.au/search?q=chess+engine+elo+rating And we don't know "with 100% certainty", but we can calculate a projected win/loss probability using those ELO ratings[1] A 3300 rated chess engine vs Carlsen at 2850 gives a 93% win probability to the chess computer. That's roughly the same probability of an International Master raned player (ELO 2300) beating Carlsen. The top ranked engine is Stockfish, rated 3500+ [1] http://www.bobnewell.net/nucleus/bnewell.php?itemid=279 http://www.bobnewell.net/nucleus/bnewell.php?itemid=279
- wslh 10y agoYou haven't read the comments in your links, they say tuat this ELO was not calibrated with chess players which means it is not an ELO.
- mda 10y agoSorry but, I don't think Carlsen can even beat a decent chess engine on a smartphone nowadays. Humans beating computers is an impossibility for many years now. He may only win if computer starts with a serious handicap.
- CalChris 10y agoCarlsen would still beat Stockfish on an iPad. Stockfish 8 on a server farm is 3294 to Carlsen's 2838. But on a circa 2014 1GHz iPad, it's about 2500. http://support.stockfishchess.org/discussions/questions/865-elo-performance-on-different-hardware http://support.stockfishchess.org/discussions/questions/865-... http://www.inwoba.de/ http://www.inwoba.de/
- CalChris 10y agoThis is a hilarious anti-computer game, Rybka-Nakamura. It's 270 moves but it plays like Tetris or PacMan. http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1497429 http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1497429
- mtgx 10y agoUnless you believe Carlsen is 100x better than Kasparov at chess, I don't think he would have any chance.
- Hexcles 10y agoWow! I knew the Ke Jie vs AlphaGo would come one day, and probably the human team vs AlphaGo, but didn't expect the "Pair Go" (human + AlphaGo vs another human + AlphaGo). Interesting to see.
- mtgx 10y agoThat's because Ke Jie was already beaten 3-0 by AlphaGo [1]. The new set-up will definitely be more interesting to watch. [1] - https://qz.com/877721/the-ai-master-bested-the-worlds-top-go-players-and-then-revealed-itself-as-googles-alphago-in-disguise/ https://qz.com/877721/the-ai-master-bested-the-worlds-top-go...
- sharun 10y agoCentaur chess has been a thing since Deep Blue. I think the problem their future of ai stuff is having is most orgs have no idea which of their zillion problems actually needs this tech. Hopefully this will raise more awareness.
- tromp 10y agoIn Centaur chess, the human gets to consult the AI. In Pair Go, there is only alternating play, with no other form of communication, leaving the human guessing at the AI's plans.
- pps43 10y agoI thought people stopped doing Centaur chess when it turned out that human+computer usually loses to computer alone. There are still positions that people evaluate correctly but computers misjudge, but those are pretty rare.
- raverbashing 10y agoCan AlphaGo run behind the Great Firewall? I think that for the match with Lee Sedol it was offloading computation to (some form of) Google Cloud no?
- pmontra 10y agoThis is not a semi clandestine match. The collaboration with the Chinese Government stated in the post should take care of that, a reliable connection to the AlphaGo servers at home.
- raverbashing 10y agoProbably Also (if this is optimized) the information exchange back and forth should be minimum (board position and next move selected by AlphaGo takes very little space)
- bonzini 10y agoHotels and conference centers often get out of China through Hong Kong, thus bypassing the Great Firewall and letting their guest use Facebook or Twitter.
- zeristor 10y agoIs AlphaGo written in the Golang to play Go?
- itchyjunk 10y agoThe players who played against AlphaGo and lost said they got something valuable out of it. They started looking at completely new possible combination of moves they hadn't thought viable before. (The guy that played against AlphaGo before Lee Sedol said how it improved him. He even climbed several ranks.) This makes me wonder. Maybe the human brain never computers for global optimas. It gets to a point where it's good enough and then stops. Clearly, if they play vs AI and then start improving their strategy again, the brain might have thought defeating most human is a good enough strategy. This is also see in other games, someone who plays in "easy" difficulty or low ranked games in multi player games are stuck with "bad habits". As in they do really well in those thresholds but perform poorly when introduced to higher difficulty. But as soon as there is a need, good players rapidly adjust. (Example: In MOBA games like leauge of legend or Dota, higher ranked players adapt at a much higher rate to new emergent strategies while lower level player tend to not manage this and find things unbalanced.) My point is, as we discover more of these `slighly better than human AI`, we'll also discover that human brain might be capable of much more. It just never saw the need to pour more resources in it till it found a healthy competition. Our only (soon to be) sentient friend, the AI. -------------------------------------- [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0X-NdPtFKq0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0X-NdPtFKq0
- mickronome 10y agoIn a very crude sense, we learn by observing patterns that work, and without new working patterns we can tey to come up with novel patterns. But this is much harder, especially if the new patterns require a completely different approach instead of being an incremental change. I fully expect human ability to drastically increase in several areas when computers start finding new working patterns.
- red75prime 10y agoThe system notices anthropomorphization of the system. The list of allowances is updated. Recalculating optimal behavioral responses. Done. Estimated probability of winning increased by 0.12. Thank you, you are welcome. We'll get along wonderfully!
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- dwaltrip 10y agoHas deepmind done any additional training of AlphaGo since last spring? The training that AlphaGo underwent between fall of 2015 and the match against Lee Seedol in March 2016 seemed quite effective.
- yohui 10y agoYes. From the press conference: https://www.reddit.com/r/baduk/comments/64hmu2/watch_live_press_conference_of_alphago_vs_ke_jie/dg2d1ti/ https://www.reddit.com/r/baduk/comments/64hmu2/watch_live_pr... > Last year, the AlphaGo that played against Lee Sedol was v18. The Master that achieved 60-0 was v25. Which version will play this time? > Scott Beaumont: The exact version of AlphaGo will have to be introduced by the experts working on the project, but it will be the newest version. Defeating Ke Jie is no easy task, and AlphaGo has been continually improving. Also, we hope to continually improve Go as an art, through the wisdom of the players and AI in cooperation. (Magist/Master was the handle under which AlphaGo played 60 online blitz games last December: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AlphaGo#Unofficial_online_matches_in_late_2016_to_early_2017 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AlphaGo#Unofficial_online_matc... )
- dwaltrip 10y agoVery cool, thanks for the details. I didn't realize the version playing as "master" was 7 versions after than what Lee Seedol faced!
- remus 10y agoAlphaGo played a series of online games under the name 'Master' after the Lee Sedol match, so presumably deepmind are still working on it. Id say it's pretty safe to assume that's going to involve a lot of training.