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> what am I to do when I have to share that I maintained a Rails 4.0.x app for 16 months and was unable to upgrade it even it to 4.1.x because the previous team

by hobls 10y ago

> what am I to do when I have to share that I maintained a Rails 4.0.x app for 16 months and was unable to upgrade it even it to 4.1.x because the previous team did a horrific job? The reason I personally care about the skill of talking about bad coworkers tactfully is that I think it correlates with being able to navigate tricky workplace fuckups without making a big political mess that I have to clean up. The way I would phrase the above situation is: "I inherited a Rails 4.0 app, and I wanted to upgrade it to Rails 4.1 so that we could take advantage of feature X. This wasn't on our roadmap, so I spent a lot of my own time looking into the feasibility and working on it in my personal time. However, it eventually became clear that too much of the legacy code would have to be totally redone, and there wasn't enough of a business upside." > I am a firm believer of Einstein's saying "If you can't explain it to a 5-year old then you don't understand it" Me too! Love this.

pdimitar 10y ago
> The way I would phrase the above situation is: You're a better diplomat than me. I could've phrased it almost the same, but with me the tone and the wording depends a LOT on my current mood -- I have to work on this, that's for damn sure. It does however still leave the question "but whose fault that legacy code is?" open, don't you think? With my wording in the above comment I would've aimed at being crystal clear -- and thus somewhat rude in the process, admittedly. > without making a big political mess that I have to clean up Could you please clarify on that point? I am curious.
- hobls 10y ago
  > It does however still leave the question "but whose fault that legacy code is?" Heh, I can do this all day. "We accumulated a lot of tech debt on a previous project because of very short deadlines." Or, "the previous owner learned the technology while building the system -- I'm sure he would have done it differently today." What I'm looking for is that you understand what leads to this sort of situation, and it isn't usually, "the last guy was an idiot." I mean sometimes, sure, but even then it's usually closer to, "the last guy was hired into a role he wasn't ready for and needed a better mentor, or better training." > Could you please clarify on that point? I am curious. It's really helpful to be able to send an engineer to collaborate with another team without having to worry about whether they'll end up butting heads with someone and making a mess. Tact is important. Sometimes other people are under constraints that you're not aware of, and it's useful to have empathy. Maybe they have super tight deadlines, or maybe they're having to use a technology they've never used before. It's easy to say, "this person is a moron and their code is bad," but if they get the impression that you think that it can really harm working relationships. At that point, I end up having to step in and smooth relationship over, and it's not a great use of time. Talking about how bad ex-coworkers with tact shows me that you 1) have empathy and 2) will understand how to navigate similar situations if hired.
  - pdimitar 10y ago
    > Heh, I can do this all day. I can see that! :D Thanks, you've been very helpful. Believe it or not, I am learning from this interaction. > Tact is important. I don't disagree and I'm with you here. But herein lies the dilemma -- I've been tactful and diplomatic way too many times for my taste. I've had my fair share of politics. I am not horrible in it; I simply started lacking any patience for it and thus my mood started leaning heavily towards being blunt and somewhat inconsiderate. I am not outright offensive but I am no longer tactful and diplomatic (sigh). I started standing up and heavily protest in the face of bad politics however. I have less patience now because I expect everybody else to do the same -- and they don't. That's why I get easily irritated. I absolutely agree with ALL of your points -- the people might have had horrible customers (or team leaders), they might have drained the budget close to the end of the project so they probably had to cut tens of corners, they might have been gaining experience along the way... and a plethora of other possibilities. I agree. I do have empathy and tact. But I have lost almost all patience in the last few years. I appreciate that you might not believe such a polarized message in an interview. But I got slightly carried away sharing. :)
    - hobls 10y ago
      Happy to help! At the very least, just prove that you can keep your mouth shut if you think someone is the worst, heh. That's really all I'm looking for. ;) I also totally understand getting frustrated. I've been a total dick to my coworkers in the past, for lots of different reasons. I was burnt out, I was young, etc. I've mellowed out a lot over the years. A good chunk of that is also just being on a good team; it's really hard to be the best version of yourself of you're not well supported.
      - pdimitar 10y ago
        > I've mellowed out a lot over the years. And here you have myself at 37 being much more impatient compared to 27. :D Truth be told, I am also much more mellow in general, just not in work lately. > At the very least, just prove that you can keep your mouth shut if you think someone is the worst, heh. That's really all I'm looking for. ;) Double thanks, this is an extremely valuable advice! I appreciate you taking the time.

by hobls 10y ago

pdimitar 10y ago

> The way I would phrase the above situation is: You're a better diplomat than me. I could've phrased it almost the same, but with me the tone and the wording depends a LOT on my current mood -- I have to work on this, that's for damn sure. It does however still leave the question "but whose fault that legacy code is?" open, don't you think? With my wording in the above comment I would've aimed at being crystal clear -- and thus somewhat rude in the process, admittedly. > without making a big political mess that I have to clean up Could you please clarify on that point? I am curious.

hobls 10y ago
> It does however still leave the question "but whose fault that legacy code is?" Heh, I can do this all day. "We accumulated a lot of tech debt on a previous project because of very short deadlines." Or, "the previous owner learned the technology while building the system -- I'm sure he would have done it differently today." What I'm looking for is that you understand what leads to this sort of situation, and it isn't usually, "the last guy was an idiot." I mean sometimes, sure, but even then it's usually closer to, "the last guy was hired into a role he wasn't ready for and needed a better mentor, or better training." > Could you please clarify on that point? I am curious. It's really helpful to be able to send an engineer to collaborate with another team without having to worry about whether they'll end up butting heads with someone and making a mess. Tact is important. Sometimes other people are under constraints that you're not aware of, and it's useful to have empathy. Maybe they have super tight deadlines, or maybe they're having to use a technology they've never used before. It's easy to say, "this person is a moron and their code is bad," but if they get the impression that you think that it can really harm working relationships. At that point, I end up having to step in and smooth relationship over, and it's not a great use of time. Talking about how bad ex-coworkers with tact shows me that you 1) have empathy and 2) will understand how to navigate similar situations if hired.
- pdimitar 10y ago
  > Heh, I can do this all day. I can see that! :D Thanks, you've been very helpful. Believe it or not, I am learning from this interaction. > Tact is important. I don't disagree and I'm with you here. But herein lies the dilemma -- I've been tactful and diplomatic way too many times for my taste. I've had my fair share of politics. I am not horrible in it; I simply started lacking any patience for it and thus my mood started leaning heavily towards being blunt and somewhat inconsiderate. I am not outright offensive but I am no longer tactful and diplomatic (sigh). I started standing up and heavily protest in the face of bad politics however. I have less patience now because I expect everybody else to do the same -- and they don't. That's why I get easily irritated. I absolutely agree with ALL of your points -- the people might have had horrible customers (or team leaders), they might have drained the budget close to the end of the project so they probably had to cut tens of corners, they might have been gaining experience along the way... and a plethora of other possibilities. I agree. I do have empathy and tact. But I have lost almost all patience in the last few years. I appreciate that you might not believe such a polarized message in an interview. But I got slightly carried away sharing. :)
  - hobls 10y ago
    Happy to help! At the very least, just prove that you can keep your mouth shut if you think someone is the worst, heh. That's really all I'm looking for. ;) I also totally understand getting frustrated. I've been a total dick to my coworkers in the past, for lots of different reasons. I was burnt out, I was young, etc. I've mellowed out a lot over the years. A good chunk of that is also just being on a good team; it's really hard to be the best version of yourself of you're not well supported.
    - pdimitar 10y ago
      > I've mellowed out a lot over the years. And here you have myself at 37 being much more impatient compared to 27. :D Truth be told, I am also much more mellow in general, just not in work lately. > At the very least, just prove that you can keep your mouth shut if you think someone is the worst, heh. That's really all I'm looking for. ;) Double thanks, this is an extremely valuable advice! I appreciate you taking the time.