4 ms·

I don't like the idea that we have to pass laws to force companies to make a better product. Why can't a company take the initiative and grab all the customers

I don't like the idea that we have to pass laws to force companies to make a better product. Why can't a company take the initiative and grab all the customers who value this?

toomuchtodo 10y ago
Barriers to entry + capital costs.
X86BSD 10y ago
Liability laws are in dire need in the software industry. Security for instance would not be such an abysmal disaster if companies were held liable for the insecure garbage they are pumping out.
- bitwize 10y ago
  Indeed. No one should hire a programmer except that they be licensed and bonded, just like any other form of skilled labor. Users of software developed by unlicensed programmers should also be held liable if their machines should be compromised and used in a botnet or other malicious activity. That means no Linux or, in your case, BSD.
  - michaelmrose 10y ago
    Just attach liability to a sale taking place.
digitalzombie 10y ago
> Why can't a company take the initiative and grab all the customers who value this? You make it sounds so easy to start a tractor company.
- notliketherest 10y ago
  The result of a free market is that the better products will always win out. By your logic your statement could just have easily as been "to start a car company" or "to start a rocket company" or "to start a computer company". These are all examples of industries whose existing players were supplanted by a better idea with smart, passionate and dedicated entrepreneurs.
  - andrepd 10y ago
    > The result of a free market is that the better products will always win out. Just two words, capital costs, suffice to throw that entire line of thought to the ground.
    - cmurf 10y ago
      It's a huge barrier to market entry effectively making for a natural monopoly. In farm equipment it's John Deere and Caterpillar and they don't have that much overlap product wise these days. If you go through the long list of farming equipment companies, they're all gone now. Defunct, or conglomeration.
      - pacaro 10y ago
        At some point anti-trust should kick in, regardless of the origin of the monopoly, the theory behind anti-trust is to protect the consumer
      - randomdata 10y ago
        > In farm equipment it's John Deere and Caterpillar Caterpillar? In agriculture? Do you mean Challenger (AGCO) or CLAAS, both of whom have used Caterpillar branding at points in the past? Although neither of them have recently. Curiously, you're the second person to have mentioned Caterpillar being involved in agriculture in this discussion. Which surprises me. They are not a player at all, outside of some overlap use of their industrial products (skidsteers, payloaders, etc.)
        10y ago
- andrewchambers 10y ago
  I didn't say start one, there are lots of existing companies, perhaps someone with a lower market share could try it.
  - dsmithatx 10y ago
    They don't have the capital and market share to innovate the way the current monopoly (Deere) has. As long as our government is ran by lobbyist awarding the rich, competition will remain a myth. Your comment reads like someone who believes there is a free market. I don't think most Americans realize lobbyist are the opposition and their sole purpose is to ensure a free market does not exist in their respective industry.
    - digitalzombie 10y ago
      I was going to point to free market and libertarian but I didn't want to incite politic. But yeah, many people that believe in this, thinks it's simple. One example is my buddy who thinks automation is good and don't account the people who are displaced by it. When press for what he would do for these people. It took 20 minute for him to say: 1. charity 2. community 3. family to help those people. He also counter that because there's less worker due to automation their wages would rise. Articles have shown that their wages would do the opposite actually. But notice there is no government safety net for these people. It's quite interesting. If you want this free market, you want your country labor force to run at maximum. So in my opinion, free market people, should at least support some social safety net to transition these people into a new labor sector. In general this free market thing isn't some law that came about from nature. It's a human invention... so the fear of having more laws or laws being abuse is crazy. I am incline to believe these people are arm chair economists, just like myself, but with more faith in this mystical concept of free market.
thearn4 10y ago
There is a fair amount of competition in this space. Around me, I see a lot of Kubota, New Holland, etc. Not too many John Deeres actually.
- froindt 10y ago
  > Around me, I see a lot of Kubota, New Holland, etc. Not too many John Deeres actually. Around Iowa I see these brands as well, but I don't see Kubota and New Holland as being as massive and innovative as Deere and Cat are/can be. John Deere has been notorious in the legal system in its pursuit of these locks on software. They have very good autonomy software which gets better every season, and distinguishes them from Kubota and New Holland. Their autonomy seems to be up-and-coming, but isn't in primetime just yet. What area of the country are you in? I wonder if it is more of a geographic difference in brand choice, or if John Deere doesn't handle the local crops in your area as well.
  - cc439 10y ago
    Kubota and New Holland dominate the southeast in my experience. I've even seen several John Deere dealers convert over to other lines recently.
  - thearn4 10y ago
    I'm in N.E. Ohio, just outside the Cleveland metro area. The croplands here aren't at large as what you'd see in central OH, but plot sizes of around a hundred acres aren't too hard to spot. That's a good point that autonomy could be a big deal for some consumers, and I bet larger plot size is a factor in that.
    - froindt 10y ago
      It's definitely easier with a large plot of land. Iowa is largely setup on a 1 mile by 1 mile grid of roads, making plots of 640 acres. I don't know if the grid of gravel roads is common or not. I've heard of John Deere being able to stay within about an inch of the previously traveled path on subsequent passes through the field. "Guaranteeing" you won't drive over previously planted crops and being able to customize the spraying, doing most driving autonomously,and collect yield per acre in real-time during harvesting, etc. make it a compelling solution out here.
cc439 10y ago
"Why can't a company take the initiative and grab all the customers who value this?" They are, that's why companies like Kubota are expanding their US-based manufacturing capacity like crazy. Capital equipment like a Harvester or practically anything above credit card expense level industrial equipment is purchased on a "make or break" level of decision making. Brand inertia can only carry a company like John Deere so long before the competition eats their lunch. Remember, this is a recent (past ~5 years) development in a market where equipment is expected to last ~10 years or longer. The next time these farmers decide to buy a piece of capital equipment, I guarantee they buy the unrestricted option.
thomastjeffery 10y ago
You must not know any farmers or ranchers. John Deere gets more love than Ford, Chevy, and Dodge combined. I haven't ever met someone who has sat in a tractor without a positive opinion of this company. Agriculture is a very technical industry, so most of these people are quite well-educated, but that education doesn't usually include software. As soon as someone in this field wraps their head around DRM and its consequences, they are likely to fight it hard, but getting to that point takes a little more explanation than it does for you or me. In the grand scheme of things, at least in the short term, advertising "no DRM" isn't likely to make a dent in John Deere's market share.
- obsurveyor 10y ago
  > I haven't ever met someone who has sat in a tractor without a positive opinion of this company. Then you must not know very many farmers or ranchers because Case IH(formerly International) vs. Deere is a very big thing in those circles. It is very much a rivalry with typically no overlap much like the Ford/Chevy/Dodge rivalries.

I don't like the idea that we have to pass laws to force companies to make a better product. Why can't a company take the initiative and grab all the customers who value this?

toomuchtodo 10y ago

Barriers to entry + capital costs.

X86BSD 10y ago

Liability laws are in dire need in the software industry. Security for instance would not be such an abysmal disaster if companies were held liable for the insecure garbage they are pumping out.

bitwize 10y ago
Indeed. No one should hire a programmer except that they be licensed and bonded, just like any other form of skilled labor. Users of software developed by unlicensed programmers should also be held liable if their machines should be compromised and used in a botnet or other malicious activity. That means no Linux or, in your case, BSD.
- michaelmrose 10y ago
  Just attach liability to a sale taking place.

digitalzombie 10y ago

> Why can't a company take the initiative and grab all the customers who value this? You make it sounds so easy to start a tractor company.

notliketherest 10y ago
The result of a free market is that the better products will always win out. By your logic your statement could just have easily as been "to start a car company" or "to start a rocket company" or "to start a computer company". These are all examples of industries whose existing players were supplanted by a better idea with smart, passionate and dedicated entrepreneurs.
- andrepd 10y ago
  > The result of a free market is that the better products will always win out. Just two words, capital costs, suffice to throw that entire line of thought to the ground.
  - cmurf 10y ago
    It's a huge barrier to market entry effectively making for a natural monopoly. In farm equipment it's John Deere and Caterpillar and they don't have that much overlap product wise these days. If you go through the long list of farming equipment companies, they're all gone now. Defunct, or conglomeration.
    - pacaro 10y ago
      At some point anti-trust should kick in, regardless of the origin of the monopoly, the theory behind anti-trust is to protect the consumer
    - randomdata 10y ago
      > In farm equipment it's John Deere and Caterpillar Caterpillar? In agriculture? Do you mean Challenger (AGCO) or CLAAS, both of whom have used Caterpillar branding at points in the past? Although neither of them have recently. Curiously, you're the second person to have mentioned Caterpillar being involved in agriculture in this discussion. Which surprises me. They are not a player at all, outside of some overlap use of their industrial products (skidsteers, payloaders, etc.)
      - 10y ago
andrewchambers 10y ago
I didn't say start one, there are lots of existing companies, perhaps someone with a lower market share could try it.
- dsmithatx 10y ago
  They don't have the capital and market share to innovate the way the current monopoly (Deere) has. As long as our government is ran by lobbyist awarding the rich, competition will remain a myth. Your comment reads like someone who believes there is a free market. I don't think most Americans realize lobbyist are the opposition and their sole purpose is to ensure a free market does not exist in their respective industry.
  - digitalzombie 10y ago
    I was going to point to free market and libertarian but I didn't want to incite politic. But yeah, many people that believe in this, thinks it's simple. One example is my buddy who thinks automation is good and don't account the people who are displaced by it. When press for what he would do for these people. It took 20 minute for him to say: 1. charity 2. community 3. family to help those people. He also counter that because there's less worker due to automation their wages would rise. Articles have shown that their wages would do the opposite actually. But notice there is no government safety net for these people. It's quite interesting. If you want this free market, you want your country labor force to run at maximum. So in my opinion, free market people, should at least support some social safety net to transition these people into a new labor sector. In general this free market thing isn't some law that came about from nature. It's a human invention... so the fear of having more laws or laws being abuse is crazy. I am incline to believe these people are arm chair economists, just like myself, but with more faith in this mystical concept of free market.

thearn4 10y ago

There is a fair amount of competition in this space. Around me, I see a lot of Kubota, New Holland, etc. Not too many John Deeres actually.

froindt 10y ago
> Around me, I see a lot of Kubota, New Holland, etc. Not too many John Deeres actually. Around Iowa I see these brands as well, but I don't see Kubota and New Holland as being as massive and innovative as Deere and Cat are/can be. John Deere has been notorious in the legal system in its pursuit of these locks on software. They have very good autonomy software which gets better every season, and distinguishes them from Kubota and New Holland. Their autonomy seems to be up-and-coming, but isn't in primetime just yet. What area of the country are you in? I wonder if it is more of a geographic difference in brand choice, or if John Deere doesn't handle the local crops in your area as well.
- cc439 10y ago
  Kubota and New Holland dominate the southeast in my experience. I've even seen several John Deere dealers convert over to other lines recently.
- thearn4 10y ago
  I'm in N.E. Ohio, just outside the Cleveland metro area. The croplands here aren't at large as what you'd see in central OH, but plot sizes of around a hundred acres aren't too hard to spot. That's a good point that autonomy could be a big deal for some consumers, and I bet larger plot size is a factor in that.
  - froindt 10y ago
    It's definitely easier with a large plot of land. Iowa is largely setup on a 1 mile by 1 mile grid of roads, making plots of 640 acres. I don't know if the grid of gravel roads is common or not. I've heard of John Deere being able to stay within about an inch of the previously traveled path on subsequent passes through the field. "Guaranteeing" you won't drive over previously planted crops and being able to customize the spraying, doing most driving autonomously,and collect yield per acre in real-time during harvesting, etc. make it a compelling solution out here.

cc439 10y ago

"Why can't a company take the initiative and grab all the customers who value this?" They are, that's why companies like Kubota are expanding their US-based manufacturing capacity like crazy. Capital equipment like a Harvester or practically anything above credit card expense level industrial equipment is purchased on a "make or break" level of decision making. Brand inertia can only carry a company like John Deere so long before the competition eats their lunch. Remember, this is a recent (past ~5 years) development in a market where equipment is expected to last ~10 years or longer. The next time these farmers decide to buy a piece of capital equipment, I guarantee they buy the unrestricted option.

thomastjeffery 10y ago

You must not know any farmers or ranchers. John Deere gets more love than Ford, Chevy, and Dodge combined. I haven't ever met someone who has sat in a tractor without a positive opinion of this company. Agriculture is a very technical industry, so most of these people are quite well-educated, but that education doesn't usually include software. As soon as someone in this field wraps their head around DRM and its consequences, they are likely to fight it hard, but getting to that point takes a little more explanation than it does for you or me. In the grand scheme of things, at least in the short term, advertising "no DRM" isn't likely to make a dent in John Deere's market share.

obsurveyor 10y ago
> I haven't ever met someone who has sat in a tractor without a positive opinion of this company. Then you must not know very many farmers or ranchers because Case IH(formerly International) vs. Deere is a very big thing in those circles. It is very much a rivalry with typically no overlap much like the Ford/Chevy/Dodge rivalries.