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Sleep Is the New Status Symbol
- mettamage 10y agoThat sleep impairs learning is something I notice as well. For someone who can't sleep well, it feels like a cognitive enhancer. What I find hard to reconcile nowadays in my life is how to go out with friends, stay up until 4, wake up at 12 and then go to bed around 11 again (only being awake for 11 hours). When this happens I can be assured that I can't sleep well, but I have to go to bed around that time to have a shot at getting 8 hours of sleep. How do other HNers deal with this?
- r00fus 10y agoMelatonin. It's considered safe, normally produced by your body and there's very little tolerance (i.e., diminishing returns over time): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12546989 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12546989
- krzyk 10y agoWatch out for melatonin, it might cause/increase depression (or depressive thoughts). Source: Safety instructions on a box of melatonin pills.
- mettamage 10y agoIsn't it also the case that after 3 days of taking it that your body will produce it less? Or is that not true?
- fb03 10y agoThat is certainly the case with almost all hormones and compounds that are produced endogenously when they are supplanted: Down Regulation. Always take the smallest dose of whatever you need to supplant in your body, for the effect you need to achieve :-)
- r00fus 10y agoDoesn't that disagree with the study posted above? Or do you have other data?
- mememaestro 10y agohttps://www.gwern.net/Melatonin https://www.gwern.net/Melatonin
- okmichael 10y agoIf I was on a night out usually I wake up quite early, like around nine. Then I feel the hangover of course but I don't go to bed again, instead have my coffee and start working. That day I feel tired and less energetic but I know of course that this is from the nice night out. When I arrive home at night I'm longing for bed but don't go to bed anytime sooner or later than I'm used to go, which is around half past 11. Then I sleep in within a short amount of time after having read a few pages in a novel. That's my hangover day novelty.
- FabHK 10y ago> That sleep impairs learning is something I notice as well Lack of sleep, presumably?
- ryanwaggoner 10y agoHave a kid. No more staying out until 4am and getting up at noon for you!
- Cthulhu_ 10y agoOr just not going out until 4. Or if you do - force yourself to get up at your regular time, or only a little later (max 2 hours?). The main thing is regularity. I had a paper round on Saturday mornings once, they made me forget how to sleep in in the mornings.
- laughfactory 10y agoSo funny, and so true. And it'll really wear you out... You'll dream of the day you get a decent night's sleep again.
- r00fus 10y agoIt's important to remember that late night LED screen usage (and overall usage of high-contrast displays like in tablets and phones) prevents generation of melatonin which promotes sleepiness. It's great that iOS/macOS now have night shift (and I've been loving F.lux for years), but it would be intersting to see how sleep patterns have been impacted by overall tech adoption.
- LostWanderer 10y agoI travel regularly to tribal places! Some of them dont have electricity and they sleep at around 8pm and wake up early at 5 am. But the people who go to cities and come back sleep really late! The shift has been very dramatic and the more technology is adopted there seems to be an increase in discontent in an otherwise peaceful life. On a side note: Earlier the tribals used to negotiate when there was a fight or crime,But once the police station opened the people seem to netgotiate less and use a third party to resolve the issue
- theon144 10y agoAs a side note, here's f.lux's response to night shift: https://forum.justgetflux.com/topic/3655/f-lux-vs-night-shift-in-macos-10-12-4/8 https://forum.justgetflux.com/topic/3655/f-lux-vs-night-shif...
- dsrajapaksha 10y agoWith the Creators update, Windows now includes a blue light filter too.
- laughfactory 10y agoYep. And we all have different levels of sensitivity to blue light. I'm super sensitive, so if I'm doing anything on screens at night it pretty much completely shuts down my melatonin production. If I'm coding, working, reading, or watching something on a device I literally won't become sleepy. And when I do go to bed I'll lay there for a long time before I can fall asleep. Bottom line is that in order to go to sleep and get 8 hours, I have to be avoid device usage at night.
- madaxe_again 10y agoI think the article is interesting, but the headline is wrong. Sleep is a status signal, but it isn't new and it isn't positive. Think about how many idioms and colloquies connect sleep with sloth, licentiousness and shame. No, the status symbol of sleep is how little of it you've had. Admittedly it'd probably be harder to sell sleep deprivation than something that ostensibly helps with the problem.
- bryanrasmussen 10y agoBoth are status symbols - how little sleep you are getting but still managing to perform is an often macho status symbol at a certain middle class level. You are living the life and doing big work on very little sleep because you are just that tough and smart. wooooo. however it is only a middle class status symbol. And in quite a lot of middle class jobs it seems required that you do this to stay in the middle class, because if you do take the time to sleep how will you keep up with the Jones' On the other hand if you're poor there is no status symbol associated with getting little sleep, it is just something you often have to do. And if you're rich there isn't any need for you to brag about how you stayed up late on the Andersen case for 4 nights this week, and got that out the door yeah. When you're rich you can afford to sleep as much as you want, and that is the real status symbol.
- B1FF_PSUVM 10y agoThe really powerful people get a nap after lunch.
- bryanrasmussen 10y agoOh yeah I've totally hacked my sleep patterns with the IRON MAN method!!
- Cthulhu_ 10y agoThe "lazy" things are more for those that sleep or laze around a lot during the day, or regularly sleep in for hours. There's no shame in the regular ~8 hours of sleep a day, besides maybe some nocturnal folk that claim to not sleep as much and instead DO ALL THE THINGS at night. They've got their own issues.
- ivanche 10y agoFor anyone seriously interested in the nature of sleep (and consequences of lacking it) this is mandatory read "Good sleep, good learning, good life" by dr Piotr Wozniak http://super-memory.com/articles/sleep.htm http://super-memory.com/articles/sleep.htm
- thinkMOAR 10y agoAs i understood from a recent trip to Chichén Itzá, Mexico. The maya indians already had classes where the ones with status only had to sleep drink eat and watch the stars. So there (and then) it was a status symbol already too.
- pavlov 10y agoDonald Trump claims to sleep 4-5 hours per night. According to reports, he also watches cable TV news for several hours every day (including Sean Spicer's press conferences -- which is a strange thing for a president to do, as the whole point of having a press secretary was to free the president's time to do something else than meet the press). Perhaps Ivanka could convince him to watch less TV and sleep some more...? An article equating sleep with status symbols is certainly a good start.
- dohertyjf 10y agoSome people honestly just need 4-5 hours of sleep. I used to work for Zillow and their CEO Spencer only sleeps 4-5 hours a night. It's all he needs and all he's ever done, according to people who have worked for him for a long time. But these people are the exception not the rule. I think the reason they tend to be successful is because they are up before everyone else and have time to get a lot accomplished before they are thrown into the day with everyone else's schedules pulling on them.
- coldpie 10y ago> I think the reason they tend to be successful is because they are up before everyone else and have time to get a lot accomplished before they are thrown into the day with everyone else's schedules pulling on them. Whenever the daydream talking point "what superpower would you have?" comes up, my answer is to not require sleep. I love sleep and I get seven to eight hours of it every night. But imagine what you could do with another eight hours of waking activity every single day. I think you're right that people who can get by on less have an advantage. But I'm not one of 'em.
- rubber_duck 10y agoI'm not experienced in this but from what I've read you could just take stuff like modafinil and sleep way less while being productive longer so it's not really a daydream scenario - there will probably be trade-offs but it's achievable.
- FabHK 10y agoLeisure as a status symbol of the upper classes is nothing new though - it's what's required for the Good Life according to Aristotle, and it's long been the aspiration of the English upper class: a marker of nobility. The famed Keynes biographer, Robert Skidelsky (The Right Honourable Lord), has an intriguing book with his son, Edward Skidelsky: How Much Is Enough? Money and the Good Life. Starting point is an essay by Keynes from 1930, Economic Possibilities for Our Grandchildren, in which Keynes predicted that 100 years from then, economic progress would have improved productivity and real incomes so much that everyone (in the developed world) would only have to work 2 days a week and be free to enjoy their leisure otherwise. Now, it's still a few years until 2030, but it doesn't really look like that prediction will come true - and the book is an examination on why. Makes you think. (And sleep. And take time off :-) http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/19/books/review/how-much-is-enough-by-robert-skidelsky-and-edward-skidelsky.html http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/19/books/review/how-much-is-e...
- mseebach 10y agoKeynes was right on the fundamental analysis, but wrong on how much people appreciate the luxuries that the extra money from working three days more than you need to can buy (plus, something about the satisfaction that many people derive from working). Most people lower middle class and up could easily get by on 2/5 of their current salaries if they made the necessary adjustments to their lifestyles -- including moving to a low-cost probably non-urban area. But that's simply not an attractive proposition to most people. Now, of course, there's a chicken-and-egg thing going on where two-day-jobs largely aren't on offer, but I'd argue that's largely because there just aren't that many takers. Especially in IT, especially if you're above-average successful, it's conceivable that you could find and negotiate a two day a week remote position -- but even among the population that probably could do that, it just doesn't seem a lot are, or are even trying.
- pjc50 10y ago> moving to a low-cost probably non-urban area .. which doesn't have the kind of leisure that they want. Two-day positions are very rare, but I'm seeing four-day arrangements becoming a thing as part of "flexible working".
- mark_l_watson 10y agoI have been partially retired for almost 20 years, and one of the many benefits is getting 8 solid hours of sleep every night as well as time for exercise. We all need money to live, but also optimizing for leasure time is important.