5 ms·

I have a friend who works in admissions at a top 10. The stupid extra-curricular and AP class suggestions is not what they target. Admissions officers often see

by fny 10y ago

I have a friend who works in admissions at a top 10. The stupid extra-curricular and AP class suggestions is not what they target. Admissions officers often see through this type of resume stuffing, and reluctantly use these candidates to fill in space after they selected their top candidates. Baseline requirements: near 1600 SAT and near 4.0 unweighted GPA taking the hardest classes. To the school, this proves you'll be able to survive at a top 10. Again, this is a requirement for consideration not admission. What gets you in: curiosity, creativity, and passion. The most compelling candidates have a narrative and a drive that speaks through the application. Say your kid loves botany, dance, travel, music, or engineering. Foster those interests and enable them to achieve in what they love. An admission officer would swoon over a kid with a passion for biology and husbandry over the directionless one who took every AP science class in the books and joined umpteen honor society.

aaron-lebo 10y ago
See, your baseline requirements to me suggest a kid that has not only accepted the system but embraced it. They've gone all in on a dumb, onerous, do x, do y, do z to succeed worldview that's inherent in high school. Now maybe I'm just complaining about being a bad student, but I'm at least a little suspicious of students who have so willingly grabbed onto that system and don't see through it for the farce it is. I think it's more likely that you'll get excellent employees out of those people than it is that you'll find great creative passion. The time investment required for such marks certainly weighs against it.
- fny 10y ago
  Yet, the thresholds colleges created have encouraged bad behavior. My point is, contrary to popular belief, they dislike candidates who are onerous, do x, do y, do z sheep too. The validictorian my junior year in high school, for example, was one of those. Took almost every AP class, 1600 SAT, tons and tons of random clubs. Got in nowhere. I do think calling the system a farce is a rather extreme exaggeration. Imagine you want to be an engineer. In what way are the AP math and science courses inadequate preparations for what's to come in college? Yes, a kid could choose to mindlessly take these classes, but if he's taking them while building and racing go carts, would you not see him differently?
  - aaron-lebo 10y ago
    I don't have anything useful to add, but those are good points.
  - csa 10y ago
    Thank you for sharing all of your information -- it's nice to have another voice. > Took almost every AP class, 1600 SAT, tons and tons of random clubs. Got in nowhere. I wish people new how not uncommon this is. > Yes, a kid could choose to mindlessly take these classes, but if he's taking them while building and racing go carts, would you not see him differently? This is a great and completely realistic example. It's tough to read good applications that have specific examples along these lines and say anything other than "wow, that's cool" (Note: there are also weak applications that have narratives like this, but that's a different issue -- it's not a crude formula).
- csa 10y ago
  > They've gone all in on a dumb, onerous, do x, do y, do z to succeed worldview that's inherent in high school. This is a half truth. They do things that typically are not that difficult for smart kids with good study skills like get good grades and get good SAT scores. > I'm at least a little suspicious of students who have so willingly grabbed onto that system and don't see through it for the farce it is The really smart and wise kids precisely see it for the farce that it is. As such, they do what it takes to get good grades and spend the rest of their time doing something that is actually interesting and/or productive. The idea that getting into an elite school is just a matter of grinding harder than the next person is just a misguided perception that works occasionally at best, and often for reasons that aren't stated. For example, a recruited athlete who can also grind academics is actually a strong candidate, but the key is the "recruited athlete" part rather than the "grind academics" part.
rb808 10y ago
> Baseline requirements: near 1600 SAT and near 4.0 unweighted GPA taking the hardest classes. And there you have it. If you have to have perfect grades you can't experiment or take any risks. A hardcore science student for whom math is easy could never study a language, or work on something they're not as good at.
- comicjk 10y ago
  Don't you think high school course grades are pretty well correlated with each other? I don't think it takes language talent to get As in a high school language class, just good study skills and memory, like all the other classes.
- fny 10y ago
  > could never study a language, or work on something they're not as good at. Foreign language and writing skills are a requirement. Assuming a school has non-STEM class like history, its expected that they'll take those classes too. Admissions doesn't penalize a student for getting a B in a "risk" class like music theory. Remember its near 4.0. I also think you're missing the point. In great part, schools deny a student for his own good. They feel that student should go to a less demanding school so he can nurse his academic skills instead of drinking from a firehose. For most of the students top schools admit, 1600 and 4.0 unweighted isn't a particularly difficult achievement.
  - jschwartzi 10y ago
    You don't get penalized for getting a single B on a single risk class, but what about two? Three? Can you quantify the level of ambitious-ness the admissions process actually allows you to have before you're no longer up for consideration? What if you're well-rounded enough not to have spent 20 hours a week studying Greek and Latin tenses for the SAT, so you only got a 1300? "It's for your own good" is a pretty arrogant attitude. There are tons of people who are capable of drinking from the firehose who don't excel in High School. Why not just admit that your selectiveness is a form of risk-aversion on your part, as in you'd rather not take a chance on a B-student.
pcurve 10y ago
"Admissions officers often see through this type of resume stuffing, and reluctantly use these candidates to fill in space after they selected their top candidates." Admissions officers look for born-geniuses that can effortlessly get perfect scores. Then they fill the rest with lesser geniuses that had to work at getting the perfect scores. Once you get IN Ivy top 10, it is not that hard to survive. "An admission officer would swoon over a kid with a passion for biology and husbandry" Thanks for sharing and I've heard this to be case from multiple sources as well, which means, it can also be gamed. Parents can structure their children's lives in order to weave this kind of narrative.
- csa 10y ago
  > Admissions officers look for born-geniuses that can effortlessly get perfect scores. Meh... I hear this a lot. This is a gross over-characterization of the reality. There are plenty of true geniuses with high grades and high SAT scores who do not get into elite schools. The applicants need something else. > Thanks for sharing and I've heard this to be case from multiple sources as well, which means, it can also be gamed. This is a half-truth. A mediocre applicant will have nothing to show from their experiences, and their recommendation from a person in that field will probably be something like "applicant is nice, shows up, and tries hard". A strong applicant will have something like a publication or a documented initiative that they led, and their recommendation will be something like "applicant did things that went above and beyond what many of our regular employees do -- I don't want this applicant to leave for school because we will be a worse place without them" (with believable detailed examples). Even that will be gamed, and sometimes it is, but there will usually be gaps in the narrative unless there is a decent-sized group of people who are colluding together. Whenever someone thinks that there is a new formula for getting into elite schools, they don't realize that the key ingredients are things like creativity, curiosity, and leadership. These are ridiculously hard to fake in a compelling manner.
csa 10y ago
> Baseline requirements: near 1600 SAT and near 4.0 unweighted GPA taking the hardest classes. To the school, this proves you'll be able to survive at a top 10. Again, this is a requirement for consideration not admission. As I have said elsewhere, this is more like a typical (but not universal) requirement for a specific group of people -- specifically, Caucasian and Asain non-athletes non-diversity candidates (including and especially geographical diversity) who live in the NE corridor on on the west coast. There are lots of kids who get into Ivies who do not have near 1600 and/or a near 4.0 unweighted GPA. That said, they are usually bringing something else significant to the table. > What gets you in: curiosity, creativity, and passion. I think this is the key. There is a ton of forgiveness for things like less than ideal grades or SAT scores, the characteristics mentioned above can go a long way towards ameliorating any perceived deficiencies. As a simple example, I know one student who was admitted to an elite school with an SAT score in the 1400s, quite a few Bs, quiet student... who also happened to be a self-taught EDM musician who was highly popular and in high demand on the EDM circuit. His experiences developing music and navigating the EDM scene while also being a pretty darn good student showed that he is one of those people who can get cool shit done.

by fny 10y ago

aaron-lebo 10y ago

See, your baseline requirements to me suggest a kid that has not only accepted the system but embraced it. They've gone all in on a dumb, onerous, do x, do y, do z to succeed worldview that's inherent in high school. Now maybe I'm just complaining about being a bad student, but I'm at least a little suspicious of students who have so willingly grabbed onto that system and don't see through it for the farce it is. I think it's more likely that you'll get excellent employees out of those people than it is that you'll find great creative passion. The time investment required for such marks certainly weighs against it.

fny 10y ago
Yet, the thresholds colleges created have encouraged bad behavior. My point is, contrary to popular belief, they dislike candidates who are onerous, do x, do y, do z sheep too. The validictorian my junior year in high school, for example, was one of those. Took almost every AP class, 1600 SAT, tons and tons of random clubs. Got in nowhere. I do think calling the system a farce is a rather extreme exaggeration. Imagine you want to be an engineer. In what way are the AP math and science courses inadequate preparations for what's to come in college? Yes, a kid could choose to mindlessly take these classes, but if he's taking them while building and racing go carts, would you not see him differently?
- aaron-lebo 10y ago
  I don't have anything useful to add, but those are good points.
- csa 10y ago
  Thank you for sharing all of your information -- it's nice to have another voice. > Took almost every AP class, 1600 SAT, tons and tons of random clubs. Got in nowhere. I wish people new how not uncommon this is. > Yes, a kid could choose to mindlessly take these classes, but if he's taking them while building and racing go carts, would you not see him differently? This is a great and completely realistic example. It's tough to read good applications that have specific examples along these lines and say anything other than "wow, that's cool" (Note: there are also weak applications that have narratives like this, but that's a different issue -- it's not a crude formula).
csa 10y ago
> They've gone all in on a dumb, onerous, do x, do y, do z to succeed worldview that's inherent in high school. This is a half truth. They do things that typically are not that difficult for smart kids with good study skills like get good grades and get good SAT scores. > I'm at least a little suspicious of students who have so willingly grabbed onto that system and don't see through it for the farce it is The really smart and wise kids precisely see it for the farce that it is. As such, they do what it takes to get good grades and spend the rest of their time doing something that is actually interesting and/or productive. The idea that getting into an elite school is just a matter of grinding harder than the next person is just a misguided perception that works occasionally at best, and often for reasons that aren't stated. For example, a recruited athlete who can also grind academics is actually a strong candidate, but the key is the "recruited athlete" part rather than the "grind academics" part.

rb808 10y ago

> Baseline requirements: near 1600 SAT and near 4.0 unweighted GPA taking the hardest classes. And there you have it. If you have to have perfect grades you can't experiment or take any risks. A hardcore science student for whom math is easy could never study a language, or work on something they're not as good at.

comicjk 10y ago
Don't you think high school course grades are pretty well correlated with each other? I don't think it takes language talent to get As in a high school language class, just good study skills and memory, like all the other classes.
fny 10y ago
> could never study a language, or work on something they're not as good at. Foreign language and writing skills are a requirement. Assuming a school has non-STEM class like history, its expected that they'll take those classes too. Admissions doesn't penalize a student for getting a B in a "risk" class like music theory. Remember its near 4.0. I also think you're missing the point. In great part, schools deny a student for his own good. They feel that student should go to a less demanding school so he can nurse his academic skills instead of drinking from a firehose. For most of the students top schools admit, 1600 and 4.0 unweighted isn't a particularly difficult achievement.
- jschwartzi 10y ago
  You don't get penalized for getting a single B on a single risk class, but what about two? Three? Can you quantify the level of ambitious-ness the admissions process actually allows you to have before you're no longer up for consideration? What if you're well-rounded enough not to have spent 20 hours a week studying Greek and Latin tenses for the SAT, so you only got a 1300? "It's for your own good" is a pretty arrogant attitude. There are tons of people who are capable of drinking from the firehose who don't excel in High School. Why not just admit that your selectiveness is a form of risk-aversion on your part, as in you'd rather not take a chance on a B-student.

pcurve 10y ago

"Admissions officers often see through this type of resume stuffing, and reluctantly use these candidates to fill in space after they selected their top candidates." Admissions officers look for born-geniuses that can effortlessly get perfect scores. Then they fill the rest with lesser geniuses that had to work at getting the perfect scores. Once you get IN Ivy top 10, it is not that hard to survive. "An admission officer would swoon over a kid with a passion for biology and husbandry" Thanks for sharing and I've heard this to be case from multiple sources as well, which means, it can also be gamed. Parents can structure their children's lives in order to weave this kind of narrative.

csa 10y ago
> Admissions officers look for born-geniuses that can effortlessly get perfect scores. Meh... I hear this a lot. This is a gross over-characterization of the reality. There are plenty of true geniuses with high grades and high SAT scores who do not get into elite schools. The applicants need something else. > Thanks for sharing and I've heard this to be case from multiple sources as well, which means, it can also be gamed. This is a half-truth. A mediocre applicant will have nothing to show from their experiences, and their recommendation from a person in that field will probably be something like "applicant is nice, shows up, and tries hard". A strong applicant will have something like a publication or a documented initiative that they led, and their recommendation will be something like "applicant did things that went above and beyond what many of our regular employees do -- I don't want this applicant to leave for school because we will be a worse place without them" (with believable detailed examples). Even that will be gamed, and sometimes it is, but there will usually be gaps in the narrative unless there is a decent-sized group of people who are colluding together. Whenever someone thinks that there is a new formula for getting into elite schools, they don't realize that the key ingredients are things like creativity, curiosity, and leadership. These are ridiculously hard to fake in a compelling manner.

csa 10y ago

> Baseline requirements: near 1600 SAT and near 4.0 unweighted GPA taking the hardest classes. To the school, this proves you'll be able to survive at a top 10. Again, this is a requirement for consideration not admission. As I have said elsewhere, this is more like a typical (but not universal) requirement for a specific group of people -- specifically, Caucasian and Asain non-athletes non-diversity candidates (including and especially geographical diversity) who live in the NE corridor on on the west coast. There are lots of kids who get into Ivies who do not have near 1600 and/or a near 4.0 unweighted GPA. That said, they are usually bringing something else significant to the table. > What gets you in: curiosity, creativity, and passion. I think this is the key. There is a ton of forgiveness for things like less than ideal grades or SAT scores, the characteristics mentioned above can go a long way towards ameliorating any perceived deficiencies. As a simple example, I know one student who was admitted to an elite school with an SAT score in the 1400s, quite a few Bs, quiet student... who also happened to be a self-taught EDM musician who was highly popular and in high demand on the EDM circuit. His experiences developing music and navigating the EDM scene while also being a pretty darn good student showed that he is one of those people who can get cool shit done.