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> Indeed an issue, especially with the public PKI, but you can roll your own root certificate with a lifespan of 50 years or something. This is somewhat dangero

> Indeed an issue, especially with the public PKI, but you can roll your own root certificate with a lifespan of 50 years or something. This is somewhat dangerous as there's now a non-expiring trust anchor instead of the usual 1-3 year key rotation, but it's still practical, especially if HTTPS is only a layer of protection around your already signed firmware. As you say this is dangerous but it's not as obvious how dangerous. To work with this trust anchor and keep it secur e you've now got a lot of physical and software security you now have to deal with for the next 50 years even if you stop supporting a given device. Since if anyone gets a hold of that root certificate they can all the sudden pretend to be you to everyone continuing to use your devices and you've now got a massive PR issue, if not legal liability. It's not an easy problem to deal with.

mjg59 10y ago
Isn't the same true of whatever signing certificate you're using to provide signed images? You'd still need to either control DNS or be able to interfere with traffic to do anything.
- simcop2387 10y ago
  Pretty much I think. I don't know a way around it either and I think it's only going to get worse for now as more states look at passing laws like California or more Companies end up with FTC suits and settlements like trendnet (20 years of mandated 3rd party auditing)
- omgtehlion 10y ago
  The difference is: to sign images your private key do not need to leave your build farm (or single build machine) and when you discontinue the product, you just wipe the server, keeping already built (and signed) images. But to serve updates via https you have to constantly keep the certifcate on internet-facing servers.
  - mjg59 10y ago
    They're using Cloudflare as their frontend, and if they're broken we're basically so fucked anyway I don't think lights are going to be our biggest concern
    - Nexxxeh 10y ago
      Might be, if the lights are in YOUR house. If one's bathroom and hallway lights gets hijacked or disabled remotely, it becomes an immediate safety issue if you're in that bathroom in the middle of the night. Also are there any protections against cycling them quickly (or really slowly, depending on how you look at it) to trigger seizures? Didn't someone recently get done for sending a seizure-inducing gif to an epileptic?
      - uxp 10y ago
        We're getting into the territory of "Guns don't kill people, people kill people with guns". If someone has Epilepsy this might be a concern, but as the story around the gif sent to Kurt Eichenwald, which you reference, points out gifs don't hurt people, assholes do. It's not IKEA's responsibility to ensure that every product they sell cannot be used in any destructive manner. People have to take responsibility for purchasing and introducing new components into their home, much like I as a software developer have to take responsibility for every line of code that I write which has the potential to have a bug that compromises the system I deploy it on, or enables someone to leak the database the application is connected to. IKEA sells knives, for christ sakes.
        Nexxxeh 10y ago
        No we aren't. Can these items be hijacked, what is the risk of that happening, and what is the damage they can cause? > It's not IKEA's responsibility to ensure that every product they sell cannot be used in any destructive manner. No, but they have a reasonable due of care. I'm not saying that they shouldn't go on sale without the protections I mentioned. But it's surely a reasonable question to ask if those protections are in there, so as to better understand the risks. >People have to take responsibility for purchasing and introducing new components into their home, Yeah, but what ARE the risks? You can't answer my question, so how am I supposed to make an informed decision if I'm epileptic? I know the balance of risks of knives. Everyone does. How many people know the potential risks of Zigbee-connected bulbs with a wifi hub?

mjg59 10y ago

Isn't the same true of whatever signing certificate you're using to provide signed images? You'd still need to either control DNS or be able to interfere with traffic to do anything.

simcop2387 10y ago
Pretty much I think. I don't know a way around it either and I think it's only going to get worse for now as more states look at passing laws like California or more Companies end up with FTC suits and settlements like trendnet (20 years of mandated 3rd party auditing)
omgtehlion 10y ago
The difference is: to sign images your private key do not need to leave your build farm (or single build machine) and when you discontinue the product, you just wipe the server, keeping already built (and signed) images. But to serve updates via https you have to constantly keep the certifcate on internet-facing servers.
- mjg59 10y ago
  They're using Cloudflare as their frontend, and if they're broken we're basically so fucked anyway I don't think lights are going to be our biggest concern
  - Nexxxeh 10y ago
    Might be, if the lights are in YOUR house. If one's bathroom and hallway lights gets hijacked or disabled remotely, it becomes an immediate safety issue if you're in that bathroom in the middle of the night. Also are there any protections against cycling them quickly (or really slowly, depending on how you look at it) to trigger seizures? Didn't someone recently get done for sending a seizure-inducing gif to an epileptic?
    - uxp 10y ago
      We're getting into the territory of "Guns don't kill people, people kill people with guns". If someone has Epilepsy this might be a concern, but as the story around the gif sent to Kurt Eichenwald, which you reference, points out gifs don't hurt people, assholes do. It's not IKEA's responsibility to ensure that every product they sell cannot be used in any destructive manner. People have to take responsibility for purchasing and introducing new components into their home, much like I as a software developer have to take responsibility for every line of code that I write which has the potential to have a bug that compromises the system I deploy it on, or enables someone to leak the database the application is connected to. IKEA sells knives, for christ sakes.
      - Nexxxeh 10y ago
        No we aren't. Can these items be hijacked, what is the risk of that happening, and what is the damage they can cause? > It's not IKEA's responsibility to ensure that every product they sell cannot be used in any destructive manner. No, but they have a reasonable due of care. I'm not saying that they shouldn't go on sale without the protections I mentioned. But it's surely a reasonable question to ask if those protections are in there, so as to better understand the risks. >People have to take responsibility for purchasing and introducing new components into their home, Yeah, but what ARE the risks? You can't answer my question, so how am I supposed to make an informed decision if I'm epileptic? I know the balance of risks of knives. Everyone does. How many people know the potential risks of Zigbee-connected bulbs with a wifi hub?