6 ms·

I looked at a number of Smalltalk books yesterday after reading a discussion here, but all of the ones I read of the following list were terrible books: http:/

I looked at a number of Smalltalk books yesterday after reading a discussion here, but all of the ones I read of the following list were terrible books: http://stephane.ducasse.free.fr/FreeBooks.html http://stephane.ducasse.free.fr/FreeBooks.html I didn't try all of the books. I also tried to read the Wikipedia article on Smalltalk. I consider trying to read a Wikipedia article about anything an act of desperation. Is this book any better than the ones I found yesterday?

jameskilton 10y ago
I haven't read many books on or using Smalltalk, but I can definitely recommend Kent Beck's "Smalltalk Best Practice Patterns" https://www.amazon.com/Smalltalk-Best-Practice-Patterns-Kent/dp/013476904X/ref=sr_1_1 https://www.amazon.com/Smalltalk-Best-Practice-Patterns-Kent...
- smalltalker4 10y ago
  Yes, this book is very good, although its contents does overlap somewhat with Fowler's Refactoring.
AdmiralAsshat 10y ago
If memory serves, the GNU Smalltalk manual is not a bad introduction/tutorial to the language.
- Safety1stClyde 10y ago
  I found your suggestion valuable.
brudgers 10y ago
Since it is on the list, it cannot be better. Probably the best book on Smalltalk is Smalltalk 80: the language (for some definition of 'best'). It is very readable despite serving as a specification for Smalltalk 80 version 2. It is a revision of the similarly titled: Smalltalk 80: the language and its implementation linked on the list. The text is clear and professionally edited to a level consistent with the commercial sale of printed books by a reputable technical publisher (Addison Wesley). Used printed copies are widely available and often inexpensive. With the caveat that I vastly prefer dead tree books to PDF's, the physical book is a thing of beauty with the code for the running example printed on the backface of the front cover and the parser state machines printed on the last few pages. On the other hand, what I appreciate about GNU Smalltalk is: 1. It is text based and while I consider the Smalltalk IDE to be historically interesting, it is the least interesting part of the language for me, today. 2. GNU Smalltalk integrates with Emacs (in Debian it is a separate package gnu-smalltalk-el). 3. I prefer tiling windows to overlapping windows and the keyboard to the mouse and other Smalltalk implementations follow the WIMP paradigm. 4. Though in fairness, I am just goofing around with Smalltalk and if I had production grade concerns, I might have a different attitude.
- Safety1stClyde 10y ago
  > Since it is on the list, it cannot be better. It might be better, since I did not try all of the books, and I did not specify which of the books I had tried.
  - brudgers 10y ago
    I assumed that the referent for 'the ones I found' was the list. My apologies for the confusion.
- kwhitefoot 10y ago
  > 4. Though in fairness, I am just goofing around with Smalltalk and if I had production grade concerns, I might have a different attitude. I'm curious, is Smalltalk especially good for any particular task? Or especially easy to use for something? I'm always on the look out for something better as all the languages I use and know well seem inadequate or tedious in one way or another and a lot of those that I don't use seem intimidatingly difficult to get started with (often because ecosystem in which they live is difficult to handle).
  - brudgers 10y ago
    Smalltalk 80: the langauage is formally divided into three parts. The third part is devoted to simulations such as a car rental agency (one of the examples). I was a bit surprised, but then I remembered that Smalltalk's object oriented predecessor was Simula (as in 'simulation'). The code for the simulation examples is compact because Smalltalk includes 'primitives' that are suited for building simulations. From a more mundane language design standpoint, Go's capital/lower syntax for 'public' versus 'private' identifiers in modules mirrors Smalltalk's public/private syntax for object methods/variables.
  - gaius 10y ago
    I'm curious, is Smalltalk especially good for any particular task? Or especially easy to use for something? Have a read of http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/main/successes/financial-services/jpmorgan/ http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/main/successes/financial-serv... But then consider that they didn't choose Smalltalk for the next project...
throwaway7645 10y ago
I found the pharo books to be lacking as well in addition to the YouTube videos. It's nice they're there, but I expected more. I wish Richard Eng (Smalltalk evangelist doing a lot of marketing blog posts) would add some videos of creating some simple/small projects using Pharo as well so I can get a better gist of what it's like developing in it. There is a lot there, but I have no way to get at it efficiently. I may have to look at the environment's built-in tutorial again.
smalltalker4 10y ago
Pharo By Example was recently updated for Pharo 5: http://files.pharo.org/books/updated-pharo-by-example/ http://files.pharo.org/books/updated-pharo-by-example/ As for that list, Smalltalk-80: the Language and its Implementation (the "blue book") is phenomenal. One of the co-authors is Adele Goldberg herself, and the last few chapters (26-30) contain the blueprint for a basic, canonical VM using Smalltalk itself as the implementation language (referred to as the "blue book VM"). I think The Art and Science of Smalltalk is quite good also, but outdated and VisualWorks-specific. The section on MVC is particularly interesting, especially if your understanding of it was shaped by RoR and other web frameworks.
agumonkey 10y ago
Not a book, but there was a Pharo MOOC on the FUN platform (france université numerique); which was as interesting for the theoritical and the pragmatic side of ST like languages.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  Not sure if this is the same course, but: http://files.pharo.org/mooc/ http://files.pharo.org/mooc/
  - agumonkey 10y ago
    Yes it is. Didn't know they published it this way. If I may, I didn't like the "we the real OO man, look at our dispatch" feel sometimes. Hubris if you ask me.
jhbadger 10y ago
Smalltalk with Style (one of the books in that page) is actually a really good book on coding style in Smalltalk. I remember reading it and taking its advice about twenty years ago when I was using Smalltalk heavily.
riffraff 10y ago
I seem to remember VisualWorks had a builtin tutorial which was kinda awesome, but I might be having rose tinted memories, it was many years ago.
dragonwriter 10y ago
Which books did you find, and what did you find "terrible"? It's very hard to suggest books which you might find subjectively superior when you don't identify what you've tried or why you didn't like it or what, specifically, you are looking for.

jameskilton 10y ago

I haven't read many books on or using Smalltalk, but I can definitely recommend Kent Beck's "Smalltalk Best Practice Patterns" https://www.amazon.com/Smalltalk-Best-Practice-Patterns-Kent/dp/013476904X/ref=sr_1_1 https://www.amazon.com/Smalltalk-Best-Practice-Patterns-Kent...

smalltalker4 10y ago
Yes, this book is very good, although its contents does overlap somewhat with Fowler's Refactoring.

AdmiralAsshat 10y ago

If memory serves, the GNU Smalltalk manual is not a bad introduction/tutorial to the language.

Safety1stClyde 10y ago
I found your suggestion valuable.

brudgers 10y ago

Since it is on the list, it cannot be better. Probably the best book on Smalltalk is Smalltalk 80: the language (for some definition of 'best'). It is very readable despite serving as a specification for Smalltalk 80 version 2. It is a revision of the similarly titled: Smalltalk 80: the language and its implementation linked on the list. The text is clear and professionally edited to a level consistent with the commercial sale of printed books by a reputable technical publisher (Addison Wesley). Used printed copies are widely available and often inexpensive. With the caveat that I vastly prefer dead tree books to PDF's, the physical book is a thing of beauty with the code for the running example printed on the backface of the front cover and the parser state machines printed on the last few pages. On the other hand, what I appreciate about GNU Smalltalk is: 1. It is text based and while I consider the Smalltalk IDE to be historically interesting, it is the least interesting part of the language for me, today. 2. GNU Smalltalk integrates with Emacs (in Debian it is a separate package gnu-smalltalk-el). 3. I prefer tiling windows to overlapping windows and the keyboard to the mouse and other Smalltalk implementations follow the WIMP paradigm. 4. Though in fairness, I am just goofing around with Smalltalk and if I had production grade concerns, I might have a different attitude.

Safety1stClyde 10y ago
> Since it is on the list, it cannot be better. It might be better, since I did not try all of the books, and I did not specify which of the books I had tried.
- brudgers 10y ago
  I assumed that the referent for 'the ones I found' was the list. My apologies for the confusion.
kwhitefoot 10y ago
> 4. Though in fairness, I am just goofing around with Smalltalk and if I had production grade concerns, I might have a different attitude. I'm curious, is Smalltalk especially good for any particular task? Or especially easy to use for something? I'm always on the look out for something better as all the languages I use and know well seem inadequate or tedious in one way or another and a lot of those that I don't use seem intimidatingly difficult to get started with (often because ecosystem in which they live is difficult to handle).
- brudgers 10y ago
  Smalltalk 80: the langauage is formally divided into three parts. The third part is devoted to simulations such as a car rental agency (one of the examples). I was a bit surprised, but then I remembered that Smalltalk's object oriented predecessor was Simula (as in 'simulation'). The code for the simulation examples is compact because Smalltalk includes 'primitives' that are suited for building simulations. From a more mundane language design standpoint, Go's capital/lower syntax for 'public' versus 'private' identifiers in modules mirrors Smalltalk's public/private syntax for object methods/variables.
- gaius 10y ago
  I'm curious, is Smalltalk especially good for any particular task? Or especially easy to use for something? Have a read of http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/main/successes/financial-services/jpmorgan/ http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/main/successes/financial-serv... But then consider that they didn't choose Smalltalk for the next project...

throwaway7645 10y ago

I found the pharo books to be lacking as well in addition to the YouTube videos. It's nice they're there, but I expected more. I wish Richard Eng (Smalltalk evangelist doing a lot of marketing blog posts) would add some videos of creating some simple/small projects using Pharo as well so I can get a better gist of what it's like developing in it. There is a lot there, but I have no way to get at it efficiently. I may have to look at the environment's built-in tutorial again.

smalltalker4 10y ago

Pharo By Example was recently updated for Pharo 5: http://files.pharo.org/books/updated-pharo-by-example/ http://files.pharo.org/books/updated-pharo-by-example/ As for that list, Smalltalk-80: the Language and its Implementation (the "blue book") is phenomenal. One of the co-authors is Adele Goldberg herself, and the last few chapters (26-30) contain the blueprint for a basic, canonical VM using Smalltalk itself as the implementation language (referred to as the "blue book VM"). I think The Art and Science of Smalltalk is quite good also, but outdated and VisualWorks-specific. The section on MVC is particularly interesting, especially if your understanding of it was shaped by RoR and other web frameworks.

agumonkey 10y ago

Not a book, but there was a Pharo MOOC on the FUN platform (france université numerique); which was as interesting for the theoritical and the pragmatic side of ST like languages.

dragonwriter 10y ago
Not sure if this is the same course, but: http://files.pharo.org/mooc/ http://files.pharo.org/mooc/
- agumonkey 10y ago
  Yes it is. Didn't know they published it this way. If I may, I didn't like the "we the real OO man, look at our dispatch" feel sometimes. Hubris if you ask me.

jhbadger 10y ago

Smalltalk with Style (one of the books in that page) is actually a really good book on coding style in Smalltalk. I remember reading it and taking its advice about twenty years ago when I was using Smalltalk heavily.

riffraff 10y ago

I seem to remember VisualWorks had a builtin tutorial which was kinda awesome, but I might be having rose tinted memories, it was many years ago.

dragonwriter 10y ago

Which books did you find, and what did you find "terrible"? It's very hard to suggest books which you might find subjectively superior when you don't identify what you've tried or why you didn't like it or what, specifically, you are looking for.