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just because these things can conceive consciousness does not make them consciousness. unless you can tell me exactly why and when in these processes conscious

just because these things can conceive consciousness does not make them consciousness. unless you can tell me exactly why and when in these processes consciousness arises, were not having the same conversation.

kneel 10y ago
Hmm yeah I saw your comment. I don't really know how to condense this subject down into a HN comment and honestly it takes a lot of effort just to get the basics down. Plenty of books out there on the subject. The entire neuroscience field is a plethora of info.
- catshirt 10y ago
  a name of any person or paper which claims to have solved consciousness is probably sufficient.
kneel 10y ago
I claimed that consciousness is understood on a high order level and you're asking for citations on how consciousness has been 'solved' We're not having the same conversation...
- catshirt 10y ago
  for our purposes, to solve is to understand. is there a single physical process or entity we can attribute consciousness to? our high level understanding of consciousness is that it at some point emerges from physical processes. this emergence is the interesting problem that we have essentially no grasp on. we obviously have broad understanding of emergence, and pragmatic intuitive applications of it, but consciousness is not one of them. if we understood when, where, how, or why consciousness emerges, we'd be intriguingly close to creating it. I mean, you are making claims (roughly "we understand consciousness"). And I am just asking for some research that supports this.
visarga 10y ago
> just because these things can conceive consciousness does not make them consciousness. I like the car example. If I have a pile of car parts, they don't make a car. They have to be put in a special way in order to function. What is "car-ness" and where does it lay? In the parts, or in the configuration, or in the whole action of driving it?
- catshirt 10y ago
  great analogy. also does a good job pointing out the type of vagueness and subjectivity in meaning that makes it hard to pin down consciousness. the vagueness- which parts can you remove from a car before you wouldn't call it a car anymore? the subjectivity- which parts can you remove from a car before I wouldn't call it a car anymore? bald is another funny example of emergence (though not my own). how many hairs must one grow before they are no longer bald?

kneel 10y ago

Hmm yeah I saw your comment. I don't really know how to condense this subject down into a HN comment and honestly it takes a lot of effort just to get the basics down. Plenty of books out there on the subject. The entire neuroscience field is a plethora of info.

catshirt 10y ago
a name of any person or paper which claims to have solved consciousness is probably sufficient.

kneel 10y ago

I claimed that consciousness is understood on a high order level and you're asking for citations on how consciousness has been 'solved' We're not having the same conversation...

catshirt 10y ago
for our purposes, to solve is to understand. is there a single physical process or entity we can attribute consciousness to? our high level understanding of consciousness is that it at some point emerges from physical processes. this emergence is the interesting problem that we have essentially no grasp on. we obviously have broad understanding of emergence, and pragmatic intuitive applications of it, but consciousness is not one of them. if we understood when, where, how, or why consciousness emerges, we'd be intriguingly close to creating it. I mean, you are making claims (roughly "we understand consciousness"). And I am just asking for some research that supports this.

visarga 10y ago

> just because these things can conceive consciousness does not make them consciousness. I like the car example. If I have a pile of car parts, they don't make a car. They have to be put in a special way in order to function. What is "car-ness" and where does it lay? In the parts, or in the configuration, or in the whole action of driving it?

catshirt 10y ago
great analogy. also does a good job pointing out the type of vagueness and subjectivity in meaning that makes it hard to pin down consciousness. the vagueness- which parts can you remove from a car before you wouldn't call it a car anymore? the subjectivity- which parts can you remove from a car before I wouldn't call it a car anymore? bald is another funny example of emergence (though not my own). how many hairs must one grow before they are no longer bald?