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Why? All of those could be feedback/computation systems without any experience. Your answer only argues for why the system would have certain computational fe

Why? All of those could be feedback/computation systems without any experience. Your answer only argues for why the system would have certain computational features, not a subjective aspect.

visarga 10y ago
My answer explains why there would be an emotion attached to a perception. The subjective aspect is a result of the network being an agent, that has to fend for itself in the greater environment. The stake of the RL game is survival itself. Each new state it finds itself in opens some possible future paths and closes other paths. Some actions lead to rewards, other to losses. I think subjectivity lays in this space of values, options and actions. That places is where "it feels like something" to see red. And if you're still unconvinced, remember what we are: a collection of cells, a protein based dynamical system that has computing and learning abilities. Why would it feel like something to be a protein-based computer?
- SomeStupidPoint 10y ago
  You've missed the question: why is there a perception at all for red to seem like that in?
  - ppod 10y ago
    What do you mean by 'perception'?
    - SomeStupidPoint 10y ago
      That there's any subjective experience, that there are things I perceive or experience. The question is how do I explain having a subjective experience at all, and do toasters have one?
      - abiox 10y ago
        > that there are things I perceive or experience you have vision and other senses, and physical phenomena that interact with them cause physiological changes. > how do I explain having a subjective experience at all isn't experience necessarily subjective? i'm not sure what non-subjective experience would even mean.
      - visarga 10y ago
        Toasters are not self-replicating systems like living things, so they don't share the same problems. An organism has to fend for itself and reproduce in order to exist. Perception appeared as a mechanism that allows organisms to adapt to changing external conditions. With experience, they learned complex behaviors by reinforcement learning. Every moment, it perceives the world, judges the value potential of possible actions (instinctively), then selects the action and executes it. This loop requires the agent to have an evolving internal state. This is 'subjective experience'. It's a mechanism by which organisms behave in a more adaptive way.
  - visarga 10y ago
    You mean, why can an agent that sees an apple also recognize the color red itself? That's trivial, it's because the red color is a low level pattern, learned by the agent even before the apple pattern. If you look at the weight maps of convolutional neural nets, in the first layer you see lines, in the second layer small shapes, then parts of objects, then whole objects as you go up layer by layer. The red color is probably somewhere in the first layer.

Why? All of those could be feedback/computation systems without any experience. Your answer only argues for why the system would have certain computational features, not a subjective aspect.

visarga 10y ago

My answer explains why there would be an emotion attached to a perception. The subjective aspect is a result of the network being an agent, that has to fend for itself in the greater environment. The stake of the RL game is survival itself. Each new state it finds itself in opens some possible future paths and closes other paths. Some actions lead to rewards, other to losses. I think subjectivity lays in this space of values, options and actions. That places is where "it feels like something" to see red. And if you're still unconvinced, remember what we are: a collection of cells, a protein based dynamical system that has computing and learning abilities. Why would it feel like something to be a protein-based computer?

SomeStupidPoint 10y ago
You've missed the question: why is there a perception at all for red to seem like that in?
- ppod 10y ago
  What do you mean by 'perception'?
  - SomeStupidPoint 10y ago
    That there's any subjective experience, that there are things I perceive or experience. The question is how do I explain having a subjective experience at all, and do toasters have one?
    - abiox 10y ago
      > that there are things I perceive or experience you have vision and other senses, and physical phenomena that interact with them cause physiological changes. > how do I explain having a subjective experience at all isn't experience necessarily subjective? i'm not sure what non-subjective experience would even mean.
    - visarga 10y ago
      Toasters are not self-replicating systems like living things, so they don't share the same problems. An organism has to fend for itself and reproduce in order to exist. Perception appeared as a mechanism that allows organisms to adapt to changing external conditions. With experience, they learned complex behaviors by reinforcement learning. Every moment, it perceives the world, judges the value potential of possible actions (instinctively), then selects the action and executes it. This loop requires the agent to have an evolving internal state. This is 'subjective experience'. It's a mechanism by which organisms behave in a more adaptive way.
- visarga 10y ago
  You mean, why can an agent that sees an apple also recognize the color red itself? That's trivial, it's because the red color is a low level pattern, learned by the agent even before the apple pattern. If you look at the weight maps of convolutional neural nets, in the first layer you see lines, in the second layer small shapes, then parts of objects, then whole objects as you go up layer by layer. The red color is probably somewhere in the first layer.