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I can't find the source but I read something recently that said that after controlling for position and experience the pay gap is around 7%. Off the cuff, I fin

by snarf21 10y ago

I can't find the source but I read something recently that said that after controlling for position and experience the pay gap is around 7%. Off the cuff, I find that to match my intuition. If you could hire women engineers for 80% of the equivalent man, then all companies would wan't to hire every other companies women at 90% of equivalent because they would still be getting a deal and the women would get a big pay bump. This is not happening. There is a pay gap and we should fix that. It is also very likely to vary widely in different industries. I also wonder if it all really caused by closed minded hirers who pay women less because they are going to be "too emotional" or other such nonsense.

Marazan 10y ago
Of course that is the reason. People aren't underpaying women because they think they can get away with it to save money, they under pay because they think the women is worth less than an equivalent male.
- emsy 10y ago
  If you have to hire women overproportionally to achieve a certain quota this seems like a logical and even justifiable conclusion.
m52go 10y ago
> If you could hire women engineers for 80% of the equivalent man, then all companies would wan't to hire every other companies women at 90% of equivalent because they would still be getting a deal and the women would get a big pay bump. This is not happening. Of course it's not happening, because according to your own response, people of both genders who have less experience get paid less. People get paid in accordance with their experience. There is no arbitrage opportunity.
- TheOtherHobbes 10y ago
  People get paid in accordance with their cultural presentation, their self-confidence, their political skills, and their ability to display tempered aggression when valuing themselves and seeking pay rises. There's some correlation with experience, but experience is often not the primary determinant of pay.
Slaul 10y ago
I make about 10% less than my co-worker. We were hired for the exact same position with the same amount of experience (hired out of school). I just did not negotiate as well as he did. I think trying to fully equalize pay (outside any obvious pay gap like women making 80% compared to men) across the board will remove the ability to negotiate.
- malandrew 10y ago
  Yup. I suspect if we remove the ability to negotiate such that everyone with the same title or at the same level gets paid equally that there will be an increase in the number of titles and levels to compensate. If that doesn't happen at the very least those candidates who believe they are worth more will not negotiate the salary but negotiate the title instead.
  - uberduber 10y ago
    Exactly. I think this would end up like the restaurants that tried out a no-tipping policy. All of their best servers left and turnover went from low to incredibly high. The best engineers would negotiate on title, or ask for creation of a new title, or just go somewhere that would allow that.
belorn 10y ago
That 7% isn't uniform through all age groups. At below age 25 women at the some education and position earn more than men. from age 25-35 the wage gap reverts, and from age 35 and up men earn more than women. With a work force that generally starts at age 20 and stop work at around age 60 the total result gives you that 7%. So what would a rational fix be to that?
- snarf21 10y ago
  I'm not sure how to fix it because it is such a human thing. Women might need to learn to be more aggressive in negotiation or come with more detail salary numbers to demand higher wages. In some industries though, there is an excess of workers and that will always make the gap worse as people will take what they can get. I think the best step forward is that in as many companies as possible, women who are in a position of management to fight to make sure that all the women in their groups are being treated as fairly as the men.
- erroneousfunk 10y ago
  What's your source on a gap with higher earning women below age 25? All I can find is http://www.aauw.org/files/2017/01/spring2017-the-simple-truth-figure-5.jpg http://www.aauw.org/files/2017/01/spring2017-the-simple-trut... which doesn't control for education or position, but with women going to college in higher numbers than men... I can't find any statistics that show women out-earning men, at any age or education level, in the US.
uberduber 10y ago
I'm a woman and fairly aggressive and experienced negotiator. When I negotiate for myself, I find the gap is about 10%. When I used to work as an agent and I was negotiating on the behalf of others, it was the exact opposite. I was able to get my clients about 10% more with less work even though I was less skilled at negotiation than other agents. If I was better, I'm curious if I could've gotten 15% or 20%. In tech though, I end up making more money than my male co-workers because engineers in general are such terrible negotiators. It's very hard to find female engineers at all, but many years ago (before Glassdoor) I did manage to interview at one company (~200 employees) with 25% female engineers. Their offer was 40-60% of market value and their benefits were awful. My guess is that the men at that company were making 60%, and women 50%. I interviewed at another company where there were 100 women employees. The only men were the 3 founders, all 10 warehouse workers, and all 4 on the tech team. Interviewed with the founder and I got an offer. It was low but I could not get him to budge a dime so I turned him down. He called over 6 times after that trying to get me to take the job. He seemed genuinely confused about why I wouldn't take it. I'm pretty sure he was a very nice and reasonable boss with the one exception of pay. He was just delusional in that department. I interviewed at a ton of these companies almost none of them are thinking "Haha! We can get away with paying our workers 70% of market value," instead they are truly deluded. I think women are more likely to just accept the low pay and not negotiate at all. When interviewing, I used to just get this intuitive feeling like "I don't think this place pays well," and it took me many years to realize what I was just seeing was too many female employees.
Mz 10y ago
Most people are unaware of their own implicit bias. Others who share the same implicit bias will also see no problem whatsoever. It is the people who get stepped on by it that notice it. I think this is a big part of why discussions about things like sexism typically are shit shows. The people doing stupid stuff honestly do not see it and feel wrongfully accused. The people getting crapped on by it tend to feel "Are you fucking kidding me???!!!! This is painfully obvious!!!!" And discussions get stuck right there.

by snarf21 10y ago

Marazan 10y ago

Of course that is the reason. People aren't underpaying women because they think they can get away with it to save money, they under pay because they think the women is worth less than an equivalent male.

emsy 10y ago
If you have to hire women overproportionally to achieve a certain quota this seems like a logical and even justifiable conclusion.

m52go 10y ago

> If you could hire women engineers for 80% of the equivalent man, then all companies would wan't to hire every other companies women at 90% of equivalent because they would still be getting a deal and the women would get a big pay bump. This is not happening. Of course it's not happening, because according to your own response, people of both genders who have less experience get paid less. People get paid in accordance with their experience. There is no arbitrage opportunity.

TheOtherHobbes 10y ago
People get paid in accordance with their cultural presentation, their self-confidence, their political skills, and their ability to display tempered aggression when valuing themselves and seeking pay rises. There's some correlation with experience, but experience is often not the primary determinant of pay.

Slaul 10y ago

I make about 10% less than my co-worker. We were hired for the exact same position with the same amount of experience (hired out of school). I just did not negotiate as well as he did. I think trying to fully equalize pay (outside any obvious pay gap like women making 80% compared to men) across the board will remove the ability to negotiate.

malandrew 10y ago
Yup. I suspect if we remove the ability to negotiate such that everyone with the same title or at the same level gets paid equally that there will be an increase in the number of titles and levels to compensate. If that doesn't happen at the very least those candidates who believe they are worth more will not negotiate the salary but negotiate the title instead.
- uberduber 10y ago
  Exactly. I think this would end up like the restaurants that tried out a no-tipping policy. All of their best servers left and turnover went from low to incredibly high. The best engineers would negotiate on title, or ask for creation of a new title, or just go somewhere that would allow that.

belorn 10y ago

That 7% isn't uniform through all age groups. At below age 25 women at the some education and position earn more than men. from age 25-35 the wage gap reverts, and from age 35 and up men earn more than women. With a work force that generally starts at age 20 and stop work at around age 60 the total result gives you that 7%. So what would a rational fix be to that?

snarf21 10y ago
I'm not sure how to fix it because it is such a human thing. Women might need to learn to be more aggressive in negotiation or come with more detail salary numbers to demand higher wages. In some industries though, there is an excess of workers and that will always make the gap worse as people will take what they can get. I think the best step forward is that in as many companies as possible, women who are in a position of management to fight to make sure that all the women in their groups are being treated as fairly as the men.
erroneousfunk 10y ago
What's your source on a gap with higher earning women below age 25? All I can find is http://www.aauw.org/files/2017/01/spring2017-the-simple-truth-figure-5.jpg http://www.aauw.org/files/2017/01/spring2017-the-simple-trut... which doesn't control for education or position, but with women going to college in higher numbers than men... I can't find any statistics that show women out-earning men, at any age or education level, in the US.

uberduber 10y ago

I'm a woman and fairly aggressive and experienced negotiator. When I negotiate for myself, I find the gap is about 10%. When I used to work as an agent and I was negotiating on the behalf of others, it was the exact opposite. I was able to get my clients about 10% more with less work even though I was less skilled at negotiation than other agents. If I was better, I'm curious if I could've gotten 15% or 20%. In tech though, I end up making more money than my male co-workers because engineers in general are such terrible negotiators. It's very hard to find female engineers at all, but many years ago (before Glassdoor) I did manage to interview at one company (~200 employees) with 25% female engineers. Their offer was 40-60% of market value and their benefits were awful. My guess is that the men at that company were making 60%, and women 50%. I interviewed at another company where there were 100 women employees. The only men were the 3 founders, all 10 warehouse workers, and all 4 on the tech team. Interviewed with the founder and I got an offer. It was low but I could not get him to budge a dime so I turned him down. He called over 6 times after that trying to get me to take the job. He seemed genuinely confused about why I wouldn't take it. I'm pretty sure he was a very nice and reasonable boss with the one exception of pay. He was just delusional in that department. I interviewed at a ton of these companies almost none of them are thinking "Haha! We can get away with paying our workers 70% of market value," instead they are truly deluded. I think women are more likely to just accept the low pay and not negotiate at all. When interviewing, I used to just get this intuitive feeling like "I don't think this place pays well," and it took me many years to realize what I was just seeing was too many female employees.

Mz 10y ago

Most people are unaware of their own implicit bias. Others who share the same implicit bias will also see no problem whatsoever. It is the people who get stepped on by it that notice it. I think this is a big part of why discussions about things like sexism typically are shit shows. The people doing stupid stuff honestly do not see it and feel wrongfully accused. The people getting crapped on by it tend to feel "Are you fucking kidding me???!!!! This is painfully obvious!!!!" And discussions get stuck right there.