4 ms·

What you heard is an apology for sexism. Almost all structural/systematic discrimination can be controlled out of your comparison if you normalize it for the fa

What you heard is an apology for sexism. Almost all structural/systematic discrimination can be controlled out of your comparison if you normalize it for the factors of the, er, structural/systematic discrimination.

tomerico 10y ago
But if you are ok with pay differences based on expert and job function, that's fine.
- inopinatus 10y ago
  Nope. The pay differences are often themselves used as a reinforcement of sexism, rather than as a recognition of net contribution. It's one of the mechanisms of systematic discrimination. NB: not commenting on whether this an issue at Google specifically.
  - ball_of_lint 10y ago
    How can you show that it's specifically discrimination on gender rather than ability or a function of both?
    - inopinatus 10y ago
      By having managers as colleagues in any large business, and paying attention to what they do.
jjoonathan 10y ago
Leaving the workforce is generally believed to negatively impact people of every gender's ability to contribute productively. If you want to claim that women or types of absences specific to women are special, the burden of proof is on you. EDIT: I see you've removed the claim I was addressing in an edit. Wish I'd quoted it.
- inopinatus 10y ago
  Yeah, because it masked my main point. I'm happy to answer for it though. That "general belief" is simply another systematic problem. I've left the workforce numerous times to go do something interesting (defining the initial parameters of a new human life definitely fall into this category, but that's not the only social construction that can pull women out of the workforce), and it's increased my skill-set every time. As a result the idea that a gap on someone's CV is a negative is grossly antithetical to me when hiring, but I've heard it far too often from other managers who expect their teams to be, essentially, slaves to a corporate machine. My point of view on gender role & pay disparity reinforcement mechanisms in institutional structures is often dramatically unpopular with traditional managers, but since my teams get results I don't care.
  - coldtea 10y ago
    >I've left the workforce numerous times to go do something interesting (defining the initial parameters of a new human life definitely fall into this category, but that's not the only social construction that can pull women out of the workforce), and it's increased my skill-set every time. Well, these are not the types of leaves we're discussing. Besides this is anecdotal at best. It's not like most "gaps on a CV" lead to "increased skill-sets".
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - inopinatus 10y ago
      It is exactly what I'm discussing. Most gaps on a CV are due to someone going off to do something else interesting, like study, or see the world and meet new types of people, or to deal with some major life challenge or event, all of which I correlate to increased professional utility. If someone can't see or use that, they're a poor manager.
      - coldtea 10y ago
        Studying? Major life challenges? Those are not the kinds of gaps that are applicable to this discussion. The gaps the parents alludes to are taking time off working to be with the kids and such. And those are not especially correlated to any "increased professional utility". And even the ones you mention, with the exception of studing, most of what you described would still be either irrelevant or detrimental to "professional utility". The typical white-upper-middle-class "trip to see the world" is more of a Gen-X/millenial cliche than some eye-opening cultural experience.

tomerico 10y ago

But if you are ok with pay differences based on expert and job function, that's fine.

inopinatus 10y ago
Nope. The pay differences are often themselves used as a reinforcement of sexism, rather than as a recognition of net contribution. It's one of the mechanisms of systematic discrimination. NB: not commenting on whether this an issue at Google specifically.
- ball_of_lint 10y ago
  How can you show that it's specifically discrimination on gender rather than ability or a function of both?
  - inopinatus 10y ago
    By having managers as colleagues in any large business, and paying attention to what they do.

jjoonathan 10y ago

Leaving the workforce is generally believed to negatively impact people of every gender's ability to contribute productively. If you want to claim that women or types of absences specific to women are special, the burden of proof is on you. EDIT: I see you've removed the claim I was addressing in an edit. Wish I'd quoted it.

inopinatus 10y ago
Yeah, because it masked my main point. I'm happy to answer for it though. That "general belief" is simply another systematic problem. I've left the workforce numerous times to go do something interesting (defining the initial parameters of a new human life definitely fall into this category, but that's not the only social construction that can pull women out of the workforce), and it's increased my skill-set every time. As a result the idea that a gap on someone's CV is a negative is grossly antithetical to me when hiring, but I've heard it far too often from other managers who expect their teams to be, essentially, slaves to a corporate machine. My point of view on gender role & pay disparity reinforcement mechanisms in institutional structures is often dramatically unpopular with traditional managers, but since my teams get results I don't care.
- coldtea 10y ago
  >I've left the workforce numerous times to go do something interesting (defining the initial parameters of a new human life definitely fall into this category, but that's not the only social construction that can pull women out of the workforce), and it's increased my skill-set every time. Well, these are not the types of leaves we're discussing. Besides this is anecdotal at best. It's not like most "gaps on a CV" lead to "increased skill-sets".
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - inopinatus 10y ago
    It is exactly what I'm discussing. Most gaps on a CV are due to someone going off to do something else interesting, like study, or see the world and meet new types of people, or to deal with some major life challenge or event, all of which I correlate to increased professional utility. If someone can't see or use that, they're a poor manager.
    - coldtea 10y ago
      Studying? Major life challenges? Those are not the kinds of gaps that are applicable to this discussion. The gaps the parents alludes to are taking time off working to be with the kids and such. And those are not especially correlated to any "increased professional utility". And even the ones you mention, with the exception of studing, most of what you described would still be either irrelevant or detrimental to "professional utility". The typical white-upper-middle-class "trip to see the world" is more of a Gen-X/millenial cliche than some eye-opening cultural experience.