4 ms·

It is hard to discern what is going on, and it feels strange to say I trust Google ahead of the government. Google is full of engineers who prize logic and fai

by yomly 10y ago

It is hard to discern what is going on, and it feels strange to say I trust Google ahead of the government. Google is full of engineers who prize logic and fairness above most else, and culturally most the engineers I meet in most places espouse gender parity and equality. In light of this, it is hard to believe Google would not find a way to even up payscales. That said, while non-management says one thing it is often the case that management find a way to enact the opposite. Something in me feels like this has the air of a dirty underhanded PR-war to it, and the government is trying to pressure Google into something we don't know about...

freddyc 10y ago
While I generally agree with your main point, I have witnessed engineers who espouse equality publicly until their own remuneration is the topic of discussion, at which point self-interest kicks in and "of course I should earn more than A, because x, y, z ..." becomes the private narrative. While a lot of progress has been made in reducing the gender wage gap in tech, we still have a long way to go.
- Majestic121 10y ago
  Of course everyone tries to have the best salary possible, the same is expected for both men and women and that's a good thing. I mean, even if I'm willing to get a hit on my salary in the name of gender equality, I'm pretty sure the money will go in upper management's pocket and not my female counterparts.
- jimmywanger 10y ago
  > "of course I should earn more than A, because x, y, z ..." Unless "x, y, and z" include "because I'm a man and she's a woman" then I don't really understand your point. Of course most employees think they're underpaid, and they can all come up with reasons, due to performance on the job, specific incidents, experience, and level of education why they should be paid more. How is that related at all to gender wage gap in any industry, let alone tech specifically?
nojvek 10y ago
I agree. Google is one of the companies with the other big cos that take diversity and pay gaps very seriously. This is a very bold claim by DOL and Wsj publishing it just for eye balls says a lot about our government and journalists nowadays. "Make outrageous stories for readers so they click ads"
- jerf 10y ago
  Google is in the core of Silicon Valley, extremely liberal, socially conscious, etc. etc., pretty much from top to bottom. To be honest, if the government were correct here my reaction to this news isn't a renewed belief in the need to do better... my reaction is that if even Google, hypothetically (since I'm not assuming that Google is necessarily wrong), couldn't manage to have equal pay, with all of its immense resources, its obvious desire to handle this correctly for all kinds of reasons, and with all of the money that is metaphorically sloshing down every hallway for them, it's time to just pack it in and give up on the idea of doing any better than Google. (Note that doesn't mean everybody else is "done", but that they shouldn't be expected to do any better than Google.) That would imply to me and probably most people that apparently this problem is just unsolvable past this point; what is anyone else who isn't as abundantly resourced as Google supposed to do that Google isn't already doing? I'm actually inclined to believe Google on this one moreso than a government, because as much as for any other company in the world they have the resources to create a reasonable definition of parity and then not particularly blink to achieve that parity by simply paying certain people more, with no other compromises needed. (Most companies would need some sort of compromise to use that plan, because one way or another the books need to balance.) (And please do me the favor of reading this message carefully again if you're really enraged by it and want to just smash the downvote button... if that's your reaction you may need to double-check your reading.)
- brighteyes 10y ago
  This isn't just the WSJ, also the LA times and Guardian have similar stories, all based on the recent court appearance (just search using that headline). It's a reasonable topic to report on, the government is accusing of Google of "extreme" (in their words) discrimination.
denzil_correa 10y ago
> It is hard to discern what is going on DoL suspects pay disparities and asks for more data from Google to see if their suspicion is true or false. Google refuses access to the data. DoL takes Google to court for access to data.
- brighteyes 10y ago
  It sounds like they have more than just a suspicion, > “We found systemic compensation disparities against women pretty much across the entire workforce,” Janette Wipper, a DoL regional director, testified in court in San Francisco on Friday. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/apr/07/google-pay-disparities-women-labor-department-lawsuit https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/apr/07/google-pa... (no pay wall)

by yomly 10y ago

freddyc 10y ago

While I generally agree with your main point, I have witnessed engineers who espouse equality publicly until their own remuneration is the topic of discussion, at which point self-interest kicks in and "of course I should earn more than A, because x, y, z ..." becomes the private narrative. While a lot of progress has been made in reducing the gender wage gap in tech, we still have a long way to go.

Majestic121 10y ago
Of course everyone tries to have the best salary possible, the same is expected for both men and women and that's a good thing. I mean, even if I'm willing to get a hit on my salary in the name of gender equality, I'm pretty sure the money will go in upper management's pocket and not my female counterparts.
jimmywanger 10y ago
> "of course I should earn more than A, because x, y, z ..." Unless "x, y, and z" include "because I'm a man and she's a woman" then I don't really understand your point. Of course most employees think they're underpaid, and they can all come up with reasons, due to performance on the job, specific incidents, experience, and level of education why they should be paid more. How is that related at all to gender wage gap in any industry, let alone tech specifically?

nojvek 10y ago

I agree. Google is one of the companies with the other big cos that take diversity and pay gaps very seriously. This is a very bold claim by DOL and Wsj publishing it just for eye balls says a lot about our government and journalists nowadays. "Make outrageous stories for readers so they click ads"

jerf 10y ago
Google is in the core of Silicon Valley, extremely liberal, socially conscious, etc. etc., pretty much from top to bottom. To be honest, if the government were correct here my reaction to this news isn't a renewed belief in the need to do better... my reaction is that if even Google, hypothetically (since I'm not assuming that Google is necessarily wrong), couldn't manage to have equal pay, with all of its immense resources, its obvious desire to handle this correctly for all kinds of reasons, and with all of the money that is metaphorically sloshing down every hallway for them, it's time to just pack it in and give up on the idea of doing any better than Google. (Note that doesn't mean everybody else is "done", but that they shouldn't be expected to do any better than Google.) That would imply to me and probably most people that apparently this problem is just unsolvable past this point; what is anyone else who isn't as abundantly resourced as Google supposed to do that Google isn't already doing? I'm actually inclined to believe Google on this one moreso than a government, because as much as for any other company in the world they have the resources to create a reasonable definition of parity and then not particularly blink to achieve that parity by simply paying certain people more, with no other compromises needed. (Most companies would need some sort of compromise to use that plan, because one way or another the books need to balance.) (And please do me the favor of reading this message carefully again if you're really enraged by it and want to just smash the downvote button... if that's your reaction you may need to double-check your reading.)
brighteyes 10y ago
This isn't just the WSJ, also the LA times and Guardian have similar stories, all based on the recent court appearance (just search using that headline). It's a reasonable topic to report on, the government is accusing of Google of "extreme" (in their words) discrimination.

denzil_correa 10y ago

> It is hard to discern what is going on DoL suspects pay disparities and asks for more data from Google to see if their suspicion is true or false. Google refuses access to the data. DoL takes Google to court for access to data.

brighteyes 10y ago
It sounds like they have more than just a suspicion, > “We found systemic compensation disparities against women pretty much across the entire workforce,” Janette Wipper, a DoL regional director, testified in court in San Francisco on Friday. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/apr/07/google-pay-disparities-women-labor-department-lawsuit https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/apr/07/google-pa... (no pay wall)